BAC Modifications

ttf_djlovell · Post by **ttf_djlovell** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:24 pm

Anyone had any custom work done by BAC Kansas City (formerly Horn Doctor)? What have your experiences been?

ttf_Sliphorn · Post by **ttf_Sliphorn** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:32 pm

I can tell you that I have a horn I got here on the forum. Corrigan wouldn't return the original owner's emails or calls to get finalized details, specs, etc. of the horn. I also tried to reach him to find out more about it and never heard back.

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:02 pm

It was a huge mistake, I lost a ton of money, and the work was sub-par.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:38 pm

You will find that there are a few people here who had bad experiences with Corrigan and a few who had great experiences.

My suspicion from reading all the bad press is that if you give him a really odd project it may not turn out well; but routine stuff is probably OK.

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:54 am

He messed up the easy job, too.

ttf_bassclef · Post by **ttf_bassclef** » Tue May 02, 2017 11:13 am

No custom work, but I'll share my experience.

I bought my Duo Gravis from him a almost two years ago. It was in stock configuration, no mods.

In addition to the sale price, I paid extra to have the small dents and dings removed from the bell section. Upon inspection when it arrived, there were plenty of those still present. Now, I couldn't tell the extent of them from the pictures I viewed before purchase, so perhaps some were removed but there were several easily accessible ones still there when I got the horn.

Now what REALLY chaps my hide is this: I also paid for one of their trademark slide setups.

When the slide arrived, it (and the bell section) was well packed so I don't believe any of this was the result of shipping damage, the slide hung pretty bad past 4th position regardless of the lube I tried. Worst of all, there was a metal band inside of the left hand cork barrel that was not attached properly and at worst wouldn't allow the slide to come all the way into 1st position and at best produced a loud *CLICK* when coming in and out of 1st.

I sent the slide to The Slide Dr. and according to his discharge notes, he had to take it completely apart to correct the bowed and misaligned inners and outers. The full list of what he did to the slide took up the better part of an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper.

All this after a B.A.C EVT Slide Treatment™? That's some B.S. right there.

I enjoy looking at the stuff that comes out of his shop on Instagram, but I'll never pay any money for it again.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon May 08, 2017 12:18 am

Stay away

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon May 08, 2017 1:24 am

If you wanna go BAC, I guess that it is probably better to get a complete setup than asking them to customize in any way another brand trombone.

ttf_Muffinman · Post by **ttf_Muffinman** » Mon May 08, 2017 3:13 am

I wish I had heeded the warnings of the poor reviews on this site before doing business with BAC.

Mike's work is great. He's a nice guy and his heart is in the right place, but the way he does business leaves a lot to be desired.

I hope for his sake, things have changed at BAC.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon May 08, 2017 4:39 am

It seems as though the quality has vastly improved in the few years. I know a few players, especially a few out in the midwest, who really dig his stuff. I know of at least a few King 2bs and 3bs that were converted that those players really like. I know of another Yamaha bass I believe that had some kind of work done by him. But it may well be a hit-or-miss thing as well.

I mentioned in another thread recently they could be the best horns in the world and I'd still think twice just because of how gaudy they are. But different strokes for different folks.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon May 08, 2017 4:48 am

There might be 2 issues in play here. 1. Their own/designed instruments. 2. Other work. I cannot comment on the instruments-they look heavy and I know a bass trombonist who couldn't wait to get rid of his bass because it was just too heavy. I know another bass trombonist who had slide work done recently with disastrous results.

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Mon May 08, 2017 6:41 am

Quote from: wgwbassbone on May 08, 2017, 04:48AMThere might be 2 issues in play here. 1. Their own/designed instruments. 2. Other work. I cannot comment on the instruments-they look heavy and I know a bass trombonist who couldn't wait to get rid of his bass because it was just too heavy. I know another bass trombonist who had slide work done recently with disastrous results.

What do you mean they look heavy? He adds extra stuff to it that you haven't asked for? I dont understand.

ttf_RJMason · Post by **ttf_RJMason** » Mon May 08, 2017 7:01 am

He means what he said...some of the horns Mike made were just soooo heavy they were too tiring to hold for a long time.

Mike can make amazing instruments and do amazing work--up until about a year there was another former employee helping to work on horns while Mike was in china securing manufacturing deals for their student lines and marching band instruments--this guy did a pretty bad job on horns, on a regular basis. Horns that Mike personally handled all the way through were much more concise.

I dropped thousands of dollars on two horns with him and they both needed so much repair work it made me sick. Eventually after getting him on the phone he agreed to completely rebuild my 3B and add a custom F Attachment with a rotor from the Williams parts cabinet he owns for free.

It is really an amazing horn and although pretty heavy (has some solid brass weight built on like a Elliot Mason's horn) one of his best builds.

He has a new team and is doing the custom work on his own now. The quality has gone way up. This is just in the last year or so, honestly.

There's still a lot more work to do on his end--it seems like more attention to detail is spent on the horns he makes for the famous guys and I think his prices are way too high--the quality control isn't there with Shires/Rath/Boutique honestly, but if you are looking for an amazing horn with a lot of character, I suggest visiting Kansas City or trying out his horns at an event in person and finding one you love!

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon May 08, 2017 7:16 am

RJM,

Though I never played on a B.A.C instrument, never got a repair done by them, your post pretty much sums my thought and conclusions drawn from the above posts. I looked a Mike video on renovations, but then read all of this negative reports. He seems like a knowldgeable and skilled person, but something in his team seems not click right. Probably the repair guy you mentioned.

I don't like bashing repairmen and horn builders, but he really needs to sort that out.

Being primarily a trumpet player, I worked with http://spadamusic.ch in Burgdorf Switzerland. I never got a repair that left me unsatisfied, I always know what everything is going to cost approximately and they never do things I didn't asked for, unless they told me that it needs to be done and I agreed.

Sometimes I ask for something and they tell me like: "Nah, that's going to cost too much." or something like this. But I know that if I really want it, they are going to do it for me for the declared price. And they do same for everybody, no matter how famous (or not) you are.

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Mon May 08, 2017 7:42 am

Quote from: RJMason on May 08, 2017, 07:01AMit seems like more attention to detail is spent on the horns he makes for the famous guys

Yeah.

I have no doubt he can make nice stuff and is capable of doing good work. One of the small-bore instruments of his I tried was really fantastic. I know he's very proud of what he's doing. I also know he is capable of being extremely dishonest and is more interested in impressing famous guys than he is in getting your project done. I also know he doesn't really play to any reasonable standard himself, which isn't in itself bad -- a lot of the best craftsmen can't; but sometimes he'll work diligently with a player to develop an instrument, and other times he'll make something he thinks looks cool and declare it to be awesome and ignore feedback that it isn't.

Whether he does it consciously or not, he has an uncanny ability to string you along with the skill of a top con man. He can drag things out for literally *years* by perpetually promising you that your project is only one component away from completion. He knows how to milk more money than agreed out of you by telling sob stories about his cash flow affecting his ability to complete your project. When you aren't satisfied, he's great at making you doubt yourself by saying stuff like "lots of cats tried your horn and thought it was the best EVER!" Or he'll name drop a famous person. And then when he runs out of excuses he is fantastic at dodging your calls and even your attempts to show up at his shop.

If you're choosing someone to work on your instrument or make someone for you, their work and their reputation means a heck of a lot more than fake reality tv shows and fancy instagram photography.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon May 08, 2017 8:23 am

The things I've sent to him have come back good, but on a couple of occasions I had to send stuff back for minor issues that he had overlooked. The copper leadpipe he put in by 3B is great.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon May 08, 2017 10:10 am

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on May 08, 2017, 06:41AM
What do you mean they look heavy? He adds extra stuff to it that you haven't asked for? I dont understand.

Have you seen pictures of some of the horns he's designed? Self explanatory.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon May 08, 2017 10:15 am

To perhaps clarify a little: One component of the heaviness comes from the loopy tuning slide which is filled with something heavy. Basically a permanent counterweight. I'm not sure if that's the case on basses as well but its been that way on all the horns I've played.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Mon May 08, 2017 10:27 am

What are you talking about guys. It's the best work I've ever seen!

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Mon May 08, 2017 1:31 pm

After reading some of these stories I am inclined to think there are a number of great craftsmen out there why would I risk it sending my horn to BAC?.....

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Mon May 08, 2017 2:27 pm

Quote from: wgwbassbone on May 08, 2017, 10:10AMHave you seen pictures of some of the horns he's designed? Self explanatory.

I think I miss understood.... I thought we were talking about sending an instrument to him for a repair job, or having him do something specific to it that the customer has asked for. I didn't realise he built his own instruments from scratch.

ttf_Larry Preston Roberson · Tue May 09, 2017 5:39 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 08, 2017, 10:27AMWhat are you talking about guys. It's the best work I've ever seen!

Is that for real Harrison, or did you make a mock up?

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue May 09, 2017 5:45 pm

Quote from: Larry Preston Roberson on May 09, 2017, 05:39PMIs that for real Harrison, or did you make a mock up?

That's real. It's on eBay now. I believe the claim is it's a Bach modified by BAC. the Bach part is probably not true but it does look like a bac concoction.

ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist · Tue May 09, 2017 11:05 pm

has the listing shown where the horn is stamped "BAC" and with the date of the modification?

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed May 10, 2017 12:28 am

Matt,

Though I understand the frustration of some people on the forum, who had bad experiences with B.A.C. there is no valid reason to bash them tike that. This is none of his work and it doesn't really look like, it is absolutely amateur work and the person who did it clearly has no idea whatever about brass instrument design.

This is the original ebay posting http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-Modified-Bach-Tenor-Trombone/122481134807?_trksid=p5411.c100170.m2943&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140131123831%26meid%3Db8520bc4de81481fae70c751396df19b%26pid%3D100170%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D122481134807

and clearly doesn't mention B.A.C. as a possible source.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed May 10, 2017 3:06 am

They've obviously revised the listing because it used to read Bach (url even still says it). The BAC claim came from the other thread from someone who either saw the horn in person on commission at a shop or perhaps on a website where the BAC portion of it was first originated. (see post in found on the net: 'why?'.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed May 10, 2017 3:35 am

I remember the post about the custom trombone, remember that it was also listed as a Bach, and saw also that the guy listing the horn is selling posh chairs

So, he really doesn't know what he has got, or he doesn't want to reveal it for obvious reasons.

I never played a B.A.C. trombones, or got a trombone customized or repaired by them. Their reviews seem to be quite mixed, which means that they do some good things, but probably quality control is not at their best, as well as doing business and dealing with customers. Still, nowadays building and running such a business is not easy at all, why I am definetly against ruining their reputation for no reason. If Mike is as good as people claim to, he will eventually overcome his shortcomings provoked by bad personel and inconsistent quality control. Why do this more difficult for him?

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed May 10, 2017 5:03 am

If this is his work, it doesn't reflect any more negatively than any of his other work. Similarly, take the example of "The Seasons" . They aren't necessarily totally reflective of his work because of the conditions under which they were commissioned. I get that the person paying the piper calls the tune. He could have had someone insist on covering up the F wrap.

If its not his work, then so be it, but its aesthetic does bear a strong resemblance to other projects he has done. Pointing that out is not inherently negative since there are obviously quite a number of people who like the appearance of his work.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed May 10, 2017 5:26 am

I don't think so. Not all of his horns look so...industrial, and the foil horn is nothing like it (it just looks, and probably plays rubbish). Mike sure has some rather extravagant and unconventional ideas about how a trombone should look. Some like it, most not. Does this makes his horns plays better? I believe that every horn should be assessed separately.

Purely from aesthetic point of view, I don't think that there is so much of a difference. The most popular design on small bore seem to be:

It does look heavier than a Conn, Bach or King, but looks can be deceiving. As some Taylor, Monette or Harrelson trumpets that are in fact lightweight

Actually, the only thing that looks out of the ordinary is, that he opted for this circular kind of brace, instead of putting the conventional counterwight (there is a such a version as well)

The heavier version is something like that

He puts some more weight on mp receiver and some heavier bracings, not everybody's cup of tea, but this may be efficient, though you will probably get a limited feedback from the horn.

Some stuff are made simply to impress, to demonstrate what he can really be done, without saying that it should...like the wooden bell trombone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pVSlSfjTe8

or the recent Dizzy style trombone bell, which I am not really into it either. Surely, he will find someone that's keen on "pimping" trombones and will make some money out of it. Even the pimp horns seems to be properly built, which is basically a good sign.

The real problem with heavy trombones is probably felt more with bigger instruments - large bore trigger tbones and basses are already heavy enough on its own without putting additional weight in whateverplaces, which creates a real physical and ergonomics challenge, which can make its use next to impossible - if that's so, Mike really got to change radically his design and concept. But a small bore tenor can stand some more weight, if ergonomics and playability is right.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Wed May 10, 2017 7:05 am

The Mason horn is unbelievable. I don't think there are many actual Mason horns floating around though.

If you search for it, the first thing that comes up is some rent-a-horn site trying to rent you some budget outsourced version of the horn.

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Wed May 10, 2017 7:18 am

Quote from: bonenick on May 10, 2017, 03:35AM why I am definetly against ruining their reputation for no reason. If Mike is as good as people claim to, he will eventually overcome his shortcomings provoked by bad personel and inconsistent quality control. Why do this more difficult for him?

To protect the rest of you against the type of FRAUD that Mr. Corrigan regularly engages in? He doesn't seem to have any ethical concerns about doing it, so we shouldn't have any about exposing him for it. You're welcome.

I don't know who made the instrument on eBay, but it sure looks like one of his to me. Even his pretty work has a somewhat homemade aesthetic up close that you don't necessarily see in the glamour shots he posts to social media.

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Wed May 10, 2017 7:25 am

Quote from: bonenick on May 10, 2017, 05:26AM
Some stuff are made simply to impress, to demonstrate what he can really be done, without saying that it should...like the wooden bell trombone:

The bell was made by Rob Jones. BAC bought it from him, mounted it up to one of their trombones, and proceeded to show it off at numerous trade shows and in numerous social media posts. It's nothing more than a marketing gimmick.

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Wed May 10, 2017 7:52 am

Quote from: bonenick on May 10, 2017, 12:28AM...

This is the original ebay posting http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-Modified-Bach-Tenor-Trombone/122481134807?...

and clearly doesn't mention B.A.C. as a possible source.

I have seen this horn in person. It is a Conn 50H. Not a Bach. The original eBay listing mentioned Bach. I don't know why - perhaps the owner believed it was a Bach! The owner is selling it on consignment in Oakland CA and claims it was made by BAC. I did not inspect the horn so I don't know it there are BAC markings on it, but it does look like a BAC creation...

The bottom line is that the owner thinks it is worth quite a bit of money. To me, it looks like a $200 horn with $200 worth of custom work (for some reason).

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed May 10, 2017 8:12 am

Quote from: greenbean on May 10, 2017, 07:52AMThe bottom line is that the owner thinks it is worth quite a bit of money. To me, it looks like a $200 horn with $200 worth of custom work (for some reason).

I would doubt on the custom work charge

I am not into bashing B.A.C. or whoever else, but that looks like the work of someone who made a first atempt of repair/custom brass work.

If I decide to spend some cash on ebay, the first recommendation of ebay would be http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-YSL-3530R-500-525-Dual-Bore-Tenor-Trombone-MINT/282460613587?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D40130%26meid%3Da75de61ee148496c946a3cd7f3903450%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D122481134807 and I would definetly rather look in it to spend the cash.

ttf_PSJ · Post by **ttf_PSJ** » Mon May 22, 2017 12:06 pm

I have been reading this thread for the past week or so since I was getting work done last week at BAC. I have an Olds P24G that the plastic valve linkages were starting to crack. A couple of months earlier I called, we talked about replacing the complete linkages and I got scheduled into the production schedule. When I got to KC last Monday (was there for the week for a conference for my day gig) I met with Mike and he actually saved me some money. He was able to custom make brass replacements for the plastic parts and made me an extra Olds rotor spring. I was going to have the slide treatment but he looked at the slide and thought it didn't need it. Instead just did a complete teardown and chem clean. The parts he made were good. I am pleased and saved a few dollars!

Joel, his Consultant/Liason gave me a complete tour of the place, everyone was really nice. And I saw a bunch of his custom horns and they are nice. Talked with Mike the day I picked up the instrument (only took a day since I was in the schedule) about a prototype bass bell section he had that was interesting.

I am just a part time pro player in Arkansas but I do think being there personally might have been better then just over the phone and shipping. I didn't feel I was treated any less than a big time pro, I thought I was treated very fairly.

Paul

ttf_Dukesboneman · Post by **ttf_Dukesboneman** » Sun May 28, 2017 9:49 am

In my opinion, If you want REALLY good repair work , Fantastic Slide work and some custom work done. I`ve never seen better than Paul Able at the Able Brass Clinic in Rochester, NY
http://www.abelbrassclinic.com/ Paul is a wonderful Repair tech that will spend the time with you to make sure you`re happy with what`s being done.
Hew worked for King for a while in (I Believe) slide quality control. And he`s a serious Bass Trombonist.
Check him out!!

ttf_Dukesboneman · Post by **ttf_Dukesboneman** » Sun May 28, 2017 9:49 am

In my opinion, If you want REALLY good repair work , Fantastic Slide work and some custom work done. I`ve never seen better than Paul Able at the Able Brass Clinic in Rochester, NY
http://www.abelbrassclinic.com/ Paul is a wonderful Repair tech that will spend the time with you to make sure you`re happy with what`s being done.
Hew worked for King for a while in (I Believe) slide quality control. And he`s a serious Bass Trombonist.
Check him out!!