TromboneChat

Hi folks,

I’m planning on having a rotary valve section built for my mid-60’s Bach 50.

Anyone have any thoughts on the Meinlschmidt open flow rotary vs the Instrument Innovations rotary? My tech really likes the former valves, but has recently gained access to latter, as well.

Anyone played or worked on both?

Andrew

The open-flow plays great open.
Trigger-engaged it's not my favorite, there's a significant difference between the open and trigger feel.
I'd lean toward the rotary personally..

Jimkinkella wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:00 pm The open-flow plays great open.
Trigger-engaged it's not my favorite, there's a significant difference between the open and trigger feel.
I'd lean toward the rotary personally..

Thanks for your response.

Just to be certain, you're definitely referring to the Open Flow, and not the Radial Flow, which is tru-bore-esque when the valve isn't engaged? Which horn did you try the valve on?

Thanks,

Andrew

I have an Instrument Innovations (Olsen) rotary valve on my 42B, an older, beat-up and customized Corporation era horn. It feels like a vastly improved rotary valve. Smooth action due to the bushings/bearings, and a small throw on the lever, esp. compared to a Thayer valve. You can tell there is a difference in tone quality and feel between notes played on the valve and on the open horn, like low C, B, F, and E, but it’s not much work to get them to sound nearly identical.

I briefly played a Bach Anniversary model with the Meinlschmidt valve during a conference. I couldn’t really say what the action was as the valve needed to be oiled. The sound and feel of the horn overall was definitely more immediate, more centered, and “brighter,” which may have been due to the newly designed leadpipe (or any other factors). I felt there was more difference between valved and open notes with the Meinlschmidt valve than my Olsen rotary.

Overall, I think the Meinlschmidt valve feels more open than the Olsen. If you’re used to traditional rotors, then the Meinlschmidt valves might feel very open/little resistance. On the other hand, if you’re used to something really open like Hagmanns or Thayers, then the Olsen rotors will be quite an adjustment the other way, that is, it will have much more resistance.

Tough choice. Let us know your decision, and how the horn turns out.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:36 am I have an Instrument Innovations (Olsen) rotary valve on my 42B, an older, beat-up and customized Corporation era horn. It feels like a vastly improved rotary valve. Smooth action due to the bushings/bearings, and a small throw on the lever, esp. compared to a Thayer valve. You can tell there is a difference in tone quality and feel between notes played on the valve and on the open horn, like low C, B, F, and E, but it’s not much work to get them to sound nearly identical.

Thanks for your response! The Instrument Innovations valve has caught my eye, so I’m trying to gather as many opinions and as much input as I can. How would compare the Olsen to the traditional rotor in terms of feel and tone? Consensus seems to be more open but still not as open as say a Thayer/Infinity valve. Also, out of curiosity, what valve wrap did you choose for your Olsen rotor?

I bought the horn used from another TC member, BurgerBob (Aidan Ritchie), who had the work done by John Sandhagen and Benn Hansenn. It’s an open wrap, with, I believe, original OE Thayer tubing, but I’d have to ask Aidan, John, or Benn.

The Olsen rotary certainly feels more open than any traditional rotor I’ve played. It’s relatively easy to make the C in 6 and the C in V1, and the B in 7 and V2, sound very close to each other, even though they will feel different. As you move down the slide (V2, V3, etc.), it becomes more difficult to match sound and response— just like any other valve. You get used to it. It’s certainly more open than traditional rotors, much less open than Thayers, and not quite as open as Kanstul Controlled Resistance valves (which I have on my bass).

It’s easier to maintain than other rotors—just regular rotary valve oil on the core and the spindles once per week. The throw is short and smooth.

Huge +1 for the instrument innovations rotor. The C in first is wide open and easy to move on and off of (loud C to loud Bb) without hiccups. What really impressed me with this rotor is just how smooth it works in a quieter context such as the organ symphony excerpt. That low Ab to Bb in T3 is butter. No interruption in sound or stutter in response. Super smooth slur.

If I were you I'd have M&W do the conversion with their rotary valve. https://customtrombones.com/

I like M&W’s new website! Much easier to navigate and more content. If I had the $$$, I would seriously consider a new M&W horn.

I had a complete detachable tenor valve section built using the Instrument Innovations rotary valve. I had it designed to be interchangeable/compatible with my 2012 Greenhoe. The result is that I can use the same bell sections with either valve. In my opinion, the Instrument Innovations valve plays every bit as good as the Greenhoe and in some ways, I think it actually plays better. It seems like the valve is smoother to transition across open and closed. The openness of both valves is very similar.

I agree with Gabe's comment regarding the M&W valve conversion. However, from a cost/value standpoint, I don't think you can beat the Instrument Innovations valve. My cost, including the valve, was $650. I believe the cost of the M&W section is $2750.

$650 is definitely on the low end unless you had parts lying around. If you discount the cost of the II valve, that leaves $450 for all the tubes, the crook, slide receiver/neckpipe, and lacquering (assuming it was lacquered, which if you compare to a M&W that is included in the price). From scratch you can expect closer to $1200-2000, less of course if you have a horn to butcher or some tubing left over from something else. The instrument innovations rotor also is not a drop in replacement for a lot of tubing so your tech also has to make some modifications to get the alignment right. Not a trivial task; not difficult either. But if your tech hasn't installed one before, they might assume that it's easier a task than they think it is and quote you something less than what their labor is worth.

I did have the Bach bell connector and the bell attachment fittings, so factor in another $50-100 or so. You can buy all of the tubing necessary to build the attachment minus the valve new for ~$250--and that's retail, not tech prices.. Better yet, go buy a used closed wrap and add the valve to it. It will require some shortening of the tubing, but the cost of any new tubing is minimal.

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:56 am If I were you I'd have M&W do the conversion with their rotary valve. https://customtrombones.com/

Shipping both ways from Australia makes that a complicated process.

Andrew

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:56 am If I were you I'd have M&W do the conversion with their rotary valve. https://customtrombones.com/

Why do you prefer the M&W rotor over the Meinlschmidt open flow?

My Butler C-12 has Instrument Innovations rotaries. I may be the only one who has had considerable trouble keeping them operating smoothly. After much concern about the problem, Dave Butler arranged for me to send the valve section to Mike Olson, who discovered that the "F" valve had turned black with oxidation[photo attached] and so he replaced both valves at no charge. One thing for sure, MK's customer service is top notch ! When they work properly they are very smooth with a short throw. I believe the super-close tolerances make proper alignment challenging. Theoretically, the valve bearing plates, top and bottom, are designed to allow the rotor to "float" and never contact the sides of the rotor housing. It allows the valve to seal properly and eliminate wear on the rotor itself. The rotor is vented and venting occurs at half stroke, so popping is never experienced. In contrast, the valves on my KING Duo Gravis and 8B have never given me a moment of grief for 50+ years of ownership. The Instrument Innovations valves are good, but not perfect in my opinion.

Tomnormann wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 6:45 am

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:56 am If I were you I'd have M&W do the conversion with their rotary valve. https://customtrombones.com/

Why do you prefer the M&W rotor over the Meinlschmidt open flow?

Well...for one thing the M&W valves play amazingly well. But that wasn't my only thought...Matthew Walker does beautiful, careful, meticulous work, and my recommendation was to have him do the conversion.

Meinlschmidt valves are also beautifully and precisely machined. They do play a bit differently from Greenhoe or M&W valves (which are similar but not identical); I think they might tend to have slightly more resistance, which can be a good thing depending on the player and the rest of the instrument.

I'm in the midst of experimenting with both Greenhoe and Meinlschmidt valves. At some point later I will report my findings

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:17 am

Tomnormann wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 6:45 am

Why do you prefer the M&W rotor over the Meinlschmidt open flow?

Well...for one thing the M&W valves play amazingly well. But that wasn't my only thought...Matthew Walker does beautiful, careful, meticulous work, and my recommendation was to have him do the conversion.

Meinlschmidt valves are also beautifully and precisely machined. They do play a bit differently from Greenhoe or M&W valves (which are similar but not identical); I think they might tend to have slightly more resistance, which can be a good thing depending on the player and the rest of the instrument.

I'm in the midst of experimenting with both Greenhoe and Meinlschmidt valves. At some point later I will report my findings

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. And I would be very interesting to read about your findings. Please note that I today wrote a new post about the Meinlschmidt, as I think that their valves deserves more attention among trombone players than they're got today.

2bobone wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:29 am My Butler C-12 has Instrument Innovations rotaries. I may be the only one who has had considerable trouble keeping them operating....

Not the only one as I have had the same experience with the rotaries that replaced the original Holtons on my 180. One works fine but the other had a black build up and even after cleaning, needs to be kept well oiled to work...much more so than my other older horns. A bit disappointing for new valves.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:17 am
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. And I would be very interesting to read about your findings. Please note that I today wrote a new post about the Meinlschmidt, as I think that their valves deserves more attention among trombone players than they're got today.

I have a Meinlschmidt Open Flow in my BAC custom horn and really like the feel of it. It definitely has some resistance when engaged, but I feel like it slots fairly easily as a result. It is no where near as stuffy as a traditional rotor.

2bobone wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:29 am My Butler C-12 has Instrument Innovations rotaries.

I dont remember these looking like that... am i remembering incorrectly or is the modern rotor a different design?

ELOW ---- That is the rotor from my Butler C-12. I'm not a photographer, just a decaying bass trombonist.