Alto horn mpc on Alto tormbone?

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:45 pm

I've only thought about this today, but I was thinking it may be cool to invest in an alto trombone for mid range stuff in small pop/jazz groups (hint: i probably won't. it'd be COOL).
But why is it so standard to use a tenor trombone mouthpiece on alto instead of something a good bit smaller, like an alto trombone mouthpiece? I guess owing to the bore size, it's logical to use a piece with that shank size, but it seems like a very large rim when the idea is to play in a slightly *higher* register. I mean, Eb mellophones have WAY smaller trumpet-like mouthpieces. Are they not pitched similarly?

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:05 pm

The bore of the shank is different. The construction of the mp receiver may be also quite different (is the a second tube creating a gap? probably not, but just asking)

In theory, you can get somebody like Doug Elliot to mount a alto mp cup on a small trombone shank, that shouldn't be too difficult. But If you can get a 12C, or even something smaller (I am not sure that someone is building such mp).

The other reason is, that many trombone players prefer to play something similar even on alto and soprano trombone.

Like Wycliffe Gordon who uses a crossover mouthpiece with a trombone cup even on trumpet.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:09 pm

There is one alto trombone that takes an alto horn mouthpiece. It's the Olds one in F.

I turned down the shank of a Conn 3 to fit my Couesnon Eb flugelhorn, but I think that's the opposite of what you want to do.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:47 pm

At one time, alto trombones were often played with rather small mouthpieces. If you look at the Bach mouthpiece catalog, the descriptions for the 12E and 15E both specifically mention Eb alto trombone. I doubt if many people use them today, and they're still significantly larger in diameter than the typical alto (tenor) horn or mellophone 'piece.

Sound concepts have changed...

ttf_MrPillow · Post by **ttf_MrPillow** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:53 pm

There were a large number of valve, "trombone style" alto horns produced in the late 19th century that used a mouthpiece receiver sized for traditional alto horn mouthpieces. I've never been quite sure what to call them. Trombone-style alto horn? Short model alto valve trombone? Snuffleupagus? Bore sizes usually around 0.450" with 7-8" bells. Terribly awkward if you have anything resembling a less-than-narrow head.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:39 pm

The range you play on alto is pretty typical *tenor* trombone range. At least for a small bore jazz player. It's not any higher, and it doesn't usually stay up there any longer, than a big band lead part.

ttf_heinz gries · Post by **ttf_heinz gries** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:36 pm

take a look here an scroll down the website.
John Cather makes a very small alto mouthpiece

http://www.brassark.com/mouthpieces

and here

http://www.cathermusic.com/subpage9.html

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:21 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Apr 10, 2017, 05:39PMThe range you play on alto is pretty typical *tenor* trombone range. At least for a small bore jazz player. It's not any higher, and it doesn't usually stay up there any longer, than a big band lead part.

Actually, I'd say almost the opposite. Tenor trombone players, especially in Big Bands, have developed a high range that includes the range of an alto trombone. I'd guess that the alto trombone fell out of favor simply because they weren't necessary since tenor players could easily achieve the range.

Since David (OP) is a trombone player, I'm not sure why he is asking this question. Does he have an alto horn player who wants to dabble in trombone?

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:28 am

I assume that the reason to use of an alto trombone is not a range, but the sound. A bit like the piccolo trumpet for a trumpeter.

You can just be a little more secure up there, put less effort and get a sound that's more appropriate for certain settings and pieces.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:31 am

When I had an alto, I used a Christian Lindberg UMI 15, which I thought worked well and gave a nice characteristic alto sound.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:58 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 11, 2017, 07:21AMSince David (OP) is a trombone player, I'm not sure why he is asking this question. Does he have an alto horn player who wants to dabble in trombone?

Guess I'm more or less just curious. I don't own an alto, don't really plan to get one in the near-future (unless I'm just going for one of the cheaper models to dabble a bit), but it just struck me as odd that alto players don't look for any more of an *extreme* sound characteristic-difference between the alt and tenor, mostly owing to the mouthpiece choice. To my ears, alto trombone sounds a LOT more like a tenor trombone than, for example, an alto horn. But it seems like one would be looking for the opposite, going to a smaller horn in a higher pitch.

As far as the alto itself, Bruce - I was thinking about how it could sound in a funk line or something. Could be cool. Again, no plans to purchase one myself.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:11 am

The alto's forte (sorry, bad choice of words) is playing softly behind a choir or blending with woodwinds. When you push them they get nasty. Just like flugelhorns. That's probably part of the reason that they haven't found a home in Funk.

ttf_MrPillow · Post by **ttf_MrPillow** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:12 am

At the end of the day trombones have to sound like trombones. If people wanted to sound like an alto horn they would play an alto horn.

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:20 am

Quote from: davdud101 on Apr 11, 2017, 07:58AMGuess I'm more or less just curious. I don't own an alto, don't really plan to get one in the near-future (unless I'm just going for one of the cheaper models to dabble a bit), but it just struck me as odd that alto players don't look for any more of an *extreme* sound characteristic-difference between the alt and tenor, mostly owing to the mouthpiece choice. To my ears, alto trombone sounds a LOT more like a tenor trombone than, for example, an alto horn. But it seems like one would be looking for the opposite, going to a smaller horn in a higher pitch.

As far as the alto itself, Bruce - I was thinking about how it could sound in a funk line or something. Could be cool. Again, no plans to purchase one myself.
Alto horn has been used occasionally in funk/fusion type settings. I'd be curious about a good alto in that mix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworks_(band)

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:27 am

Quote from: MrPillow on Apr 11, 2017, 08:12AMIf people wanted to sound like an alto horn they would play an alto horn.And if composers wanted something to sound like an alto horn, they'd write a part for it.

Quote from: davdud101 on Apr 11, 2017, 07:58AM...but it just struck me as odd that alto players don't look for any more of an *extreme* sound characteristic-difference between the alt and tenor, mostly owing to the mouthpiece choice.It's all about blending, at least in an orchestral or trombone ensemble situation.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:30 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktUzGjFENEg some opinions but also some good info

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:16 am

Quote from: JohnL on Apr 10, 2017, 03:47PMAt one time, alto trombones were often played with rather small mouthpieces. If you look at the Bach mouthpiece catalog, the descriptions for the 12E and 15E both specifically mention Eb alto trombone. I doubt if many people use them today, and they're still significantly larger in diameter than the typical alto (tenor) horn or mellophone 'piece.

Sound concepts have changed...

I played Beethoven 5:th symphony two weeks ago on my Bach 39 alto. From all the different alto mouthpieces I had I choose the Bach 12E. The 15E is good too but the rim is a bit small for me. Even a small tenor mouthpiece like the 12C or the 11C is too big, and with a 6 3/4C or bigger it sounds more like a small tenor. I want an "light" alto sound and the 12E is the match for the Bach 39. For me

/Tom

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:57 am

There can be lots of different reasons for playing alto. You can like the alto - tenor - bass sound when the three horns has sounds that fit the range, then the alto can be played with a small mpc. Like the 15E or like Tomas used resently a 12E. Those mouthpieces are smaller most small tenor pieces. (I heard Tomas on alto years ago, beautiful, a real alto sound)
another reason to play alto is to get away with a taxing part that should be played soft and high. You may use a tenor piece, the alot will still make it easier to cut the part.
Or you get told by the conductor to play alto, you do not want to spoil you tenor embouchure (whatever that is) so you use a tenor mpc.
Today many alto trombone are as large as a medium tenor. As Doug said, a lead part in a bigband is played with a tenor and actually most often higher then the "alto parts" in the orchestra.
Some players use small tenors for the "alto" parts. Often sound very nice.

Tomas play nice alto, Branimir Slokar play beautiful alto. But that is not allways the case. Many I often prefer the part being played on tenor.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:46 am

It is really not everyone's cup of tea, and everyone has to deal with a different set of lips. But it is worth at least trying a truely alto-sized mouthpiece.

I disagree with the above assessment that the alto gets nasty when pushed. I believe the reason for that is precisely because many players try to play it with a tenor mouthpiece and a tenor mindset.

I switched to small 22mm alto mouthpieces several years ago. It took a little while getting used to, but once I did, it was just so, so much nicer playing alto because :

1) it forces me to play it like a different instrument (which it is) - you just can't get away with blowing like on a tenor, you just couldn't have a tenor mindset even you feel that small rim against your lips.

2) I thus get a true alto sound, much brighter but also much fuller and resonant and with more core than when playing with a tenor-sized mouthpiece

3) range and endurance are dramatically improved

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:48 pm

Really good info here!
It's interesting to me to see all the different viewpoints on why it should be done one or another way. From what I've been able to gather, though, the alto trombone should lean more towards a tenor trombone sound than that of an alto horn sound - which makes sense!
Le.Tromboniste explained it well though - from what I've heard and done myself even, it seems a lot of players pick up the horn and play it just like they'd play a tenor, not really thinking of it as a different instrument.

In any case, I was just curious. It seemed - nad still seems - rather odd that folks continually choose a bigger mouthpiece on a smaller instrument. Reminds me of using a 4g or 3g on a small bore tenor. But it seems to come down to sound and feedback preferences. Lot more reading to do here still.

Thanks guys!

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:48 pm

Really good info here!
It's interesting to me to see all the different viewpoints on why it should be done one or another way. From what I've been able to gather, though, the alto trombone should lean more towards a tenor trombone sound than that of an alto horn sound - which makes sense!
Le.Tromboniste explained it well though - from what I've heard and done myself even, it seems a lot of players pick up the horn and play it just like they'd play a tenor, not really thinking of it as a different instrument.

In any case, I was just curious. It seemed - nad still seems - rather odd that folks continually choose a bigger mouthpiece on a smaller instrument. Reminds me of using a 4g or 3g on a small bore tenor. But it seems to come down to sound and feedback preferences. Lot more reading to do here still.

Thanks guys!