TromboneChat

Good evening all. Is it possible to have an amazing upper register on bass trombone? If I work hard enough, can my upper register be good like say Tommy Dorsey or Steinmeyer, on a bass horn? Is there any bassist I can listen to that has a great upper register? Thanks

The instrument itself does not resonate the high range the same way a small tenor does. It's certainly possible to have the chops to play those notes but it won't sound the same.

Alan Raph used to play altissimo Bb (two octaves above "tuning Bb") on his bass trombone.

He used to denigrate this abiity calling it the equivalence to the World's Tallest Midget.

I can say that spending a lot of time way up in the stratosphere on a bass trombone can be EXTREMELY tiring.

On the Kenton track, "this is an Orchestra", he introduces George Roberts as the bottom of the band, who proceeds to arpeggiate to high C, with great sound.

Dick Lieb hits the same note in solo on "KAI WINDING SEPTET CLEVELAND JUNE 1957".

Granted, neither of these sound like a lead, but they are to me, pretty much "amazing upper register".

Harry,

Just out of curiosity, why would you want to do this?

Yes, as already noted, you can certainly play high notes on a bass trombone. In fact an extended range is certainly advantageous, no matter what instrument you play. But if you really want to play "like Tommy Dorsey" - get a tenor trombone (probably even smaller than your B88) and play the parts that are appropriate for high range. You'll find it very fulfilling to create those sounds!

Check out Charlie Vernon (the bass trombonist of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra) and see what instrument he uses when he plays "upper register" music.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:44 pm Harry,

Just out of curiosity, why would you want to do this?

See, I'm a high schooler and personally I'm fine with my low & mid register, but I dislike my upper register. I feel like, it's more impressive to have a great high register on bass than low register. Tenor trombonists are expected to have a good high register, and basses are expected to have a good low register. But a bass with good high register, now that's something. I think that by my senior year, I would like to play I'm Getting Sentimental Over You on my bass, in the written octave, and sound good. But I'm not sure if the same concepts of tenor high register apply to bass. What are you guys' thoughts on this?

trombinstharry wrote: ↑Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:01 pm
...
But a bass with good high register, now that's something.
...

No... A bass with a great LOW register, now THAT is something.

A bass trombonist that wants to be professional does need to have a good high register. Work on it, make it great, but never at the expense of your other ranges.

You need it all. You are, as a bass trombonist, primarily juddged on your low register... but you will often find yourself playing in the upper register at important moments. The bass trombone can sound good in the upper register just as a small tenor can sound good in the low register. It's funny but tenor players often seem to object to bass players being able to play high, yet feel fine about honking out low register notes themselves.
A bass player should have a solid high C and ideally be able to knock out a high F above that... the bass trombonist of the St Petersburg Philharmonic orchestra can belt out a double high Bb all day long. .... on a big mouthpiece.
Work at it.

Chris

trombinstharry wrote: ↑Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:01 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:44 pm Harry,

Just out of curiosity, why would you want to do this?

See, I'm a high schooler and personally I'm fine with my low & mid register, but I dislike my upper register. I feel like, it's more impressive to have a great high register on bass than low register. Tenor trombonists are expected to have a good high register, and basses are expected to have a good low register. But a bass with good high register, now that's something. I think that by my senior year, I would like to play I'm Getting Sentimental Over You on my bass, in the written octave, and sound good. But I'm not sure if the same concepts of tenor high register apply to bass. What are you guys' thoughts on this?

Use the right tool for the right job. A bass is built to play low. Hardly anyone except your friends in the band will commend or being excited you being good at “high range only” song with a bass trombone. Most audience don’t care or even notice you are using the bass trombone, but they will surely notice and care when you crack those high notes.

It is a must to have a decent high range on bass trombone. But do it with a goal for self development, not because “it is cool to play high on bass trombone”, because you can most likely do it better and easier on tenor trombone.

Well, as basstrombonist in symphonyorchestra I had som high C, and some pedal E. Many basstromb0nists can play good high C and higher. I used to play I am gettin´sentimental in D on basstrombone in a big band in the earlie 80th.
Actually no big deal. Go practise.

Because the high register on the trombone (usually) doesn't have the sizzle that other instruments can have relative to their middle register, it won't seem as exciting as when a trumpeter plays high. In short, high range overuse on the trombone will just be perceived as just a trick, unless it's used sparingly and in a musical context.

Follow the money..

Admission: My range is exactly the same on any trombone I pick up. Conn 24h? I play from pedal G to double Bb. The pedals sound like a chain saw, but the high notes are awesome. Kanstul double trigger bass? Pedal G to double Bb. The pedals sound great, the high notes are thin and unfocused.

People poo-poo hardware selection (it's the player, not the horn, right?), but the truth is that bigger horns (generally) sound better in the lower range and vice versa. Yes, it's possible to find an outlier, or switch mouthpieces at middle C on an 88h to get great low notes and great high notes on one horn.

The worst thing, though isn't even what ranges sound best on your horn, it's how much work it is to blow enough air to play around high Bb on a 562 bore horn. That's a workout.

If you are really fixated on playing everything on a single horn, at least get a small bass, like a 9" bell, maybe small dual bore (547/562), dependent valves (so you don't blow through more valves than you need to), and play a 2G mouthpiece, or Ferguson V, or something that clears up the sound a little. Your lowest notes won't have the weight of a big 578 bore Eddie, or the clarity in the high range of a 2b. You'll be able to do everything but also kinda suck at everything too. Is that really what you want?

I'm a recovering hardware nut. I used to aspire to own a horn in every size. I realize I can get by on 2 or 3. A bass, obviously, because nothing plays pedals like a big horn, and you really need 2 valves to move around under the staff with much facility. A big tenor 88h, because that's often just expected of someone who calls themself a trombonist (but I also have a 525 slide for the big tenor, so I can cheat when necessary). And a small bore Shires Michael Davis Plus, because its less work for high notes, and it gets that brighter, clearer sound you need in a lot of situations.

I always try to use the smallest horn that will do what I need it to do without excuses. I wind up playing the 88h/525 most, because with a small mouthpiece it can get bright, but can still play convincingly down to about D below the staff. I don't like to play bass above middle C, because it just doesn't sound as good as a tenor playing there. Sometimes I have to play the bass high, and I can do it, but if I have the choice, I pick a more appropriate ax.

Perfectly written, hyperbolica.

BTW for all you doublers out there - Micha Everett has a nice book on how to cycle in your other horns (how many there are) into your practice routine. It's titled The Low Brass Player's Guide to Doubling. Well done, no fluff.

I primarily play bass nowadays (Bach 50AF3, Schilke 59) but agreed you need to be able to play several octaves fluently - on ALL trombones. I work on this almost every day. Practicing at the extremes has immensely helped me build my range.

Sam Burtis has written extensively about this over the years.

BTW, I like your selection of the single horn pick. Dual slides for the 88H a great idea! My King 3B and Conn 88H are currently on loan to a friend or swiped by my son in college. Stuck with the bass for now, but that's what I have been playing in a jazz band, concert band, and trombone choir.

If you cannot make a decent sound high and low on the bass trombone you have either a personal issue or an equipment issue or both.
It is not acceptable to sound like a constipated owl in the upper register on the bass trombone.

Chris

blast wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:26 am It is not acceptable to sound like a constipated owl in the upper register on the bass trombone.

I'm hanging this up in my studio.

Seriously though...you need to have an excellent high register to be an excellent professional bass trombonist. What you don't need is the same kind of endurance an excellent tenor player has - though the right technique and smart equipment choices will make endurance less of a problem.

So yes, practice IGSOY on bass trombone, but don't expect to sit down in the lead chair of a big band and play a 3-hour set.

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:48 pm

blast wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:26 am It is not acceptable to sound like a constipated owl in the upper register on the bass trombone.

I'm hanging this up in my studio.

Seriously though...you need to have an excellent high register to be an excellent professional bass trombonist. What you don't need is the same kind of endurance an excellent tenor player has - though the right technique and smart equipment choices will make endurance less of a problem.

So yes, practice IGSOY on bass trombone, but don't expect to sit down in the lead chair of a big band and play a 3-hour set.

Exactly.
And just to be clear... I am not suggesting that smaller equipment is the answer.... there are people out there playing big equipment and making great upper register sounds.... but you must use what works for YOU.

Chris

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:48 pm ...

So yes, practice IGSOY on bass trombone, but don't expect to sit down in the lead chair of a big band and play a 3-hour set.

I can confirm this first hand. I played 2 hours on lead of a 3 hour gig on bass trombone (the 1st player had to leave in the middle of the gig). I was definitely hurting at the end.

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:48 pm

blast wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:26 am It is not acceptable to sound like a constipated owl in the upper register on the bass trombone.

I'm hanging this up in my studio.

blast wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:39 pm
Exactly.
And just to be clear... I am not suggesting that smaller equipment is the answer.... there are people out there playing big equipment and making great upper register sounds.... but you must use what works for YOU.

Chris

I didn't say small - I said smart

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:46 pm

blast wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:39 pm
Exactly.
And just to be clear... I am not suggesting that smaller equipment is the answer.... there are people out there playing big equipment and making great upper register sounds.... but you must use what works for YOU.

Chris

I didn't say small - I said smart

Yup Gabe..... the older I get, the smarter my equipment becomes

Chris

trombinstharry wrote: ↑Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:01 pm
See, I'm a high schooler and personally I'm fine with my low & mid register, but I dislike my upper register. I feel like, it's more impressive to have a great high register on bass than low register. Tenor trombonists are expected to have a good high register, and basses are expected to have a good low register. But a bass with good high register, now that's something. I think that by my senior year, I would like to play I'm Getting Sentimental Over You on my bass, in the written octave, and sound good. But I'm not sure if the same concepts of tenor high register apply to bass. What are you guys' thoughts on this?

You won't impress any girl being Dumbo singing "Der Hölle Rache...". So don't waste your time on something absolutely useless.

Sure, tenor playing on bass can be done. But: What for? It will never sound right.
People will look at each other asking: Why does this poor boy do this to himself? It will be an embarassing situation for everyone.

And, after all: It's about music, not about any players hormones - at least when there is an audience.

Tooloud wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:36 am Sure, tenor playing on bass can be done. But: What for? It will never sound right.

Yes, but just be careful about this concept. What sounds 'right' changes over time. I'm sure that a lot of 19th-century Viennese valve trombonists would scoff at our extensive use of 'tenor-bass' trombones in principal players of modern orchestras.

But there is a reason, why there a purpose-built instruments. Because there is a purpose for everyone.
Our trombones are grown as a family, so the differences inside the family remain.

I remember a fellow student playing once a trombone concert in church, trombone and organ, of course - mostly J.S. Bach. He did this on his Bach 50 then. Made it, but it was not a mere joy to hear, because the strain and the physical power it took to play continously high on a bass was clearly audible.

Lack of musicality in favour of virtuosity.

I see nobody has mentioned Slide Hampton yet... if you listen to his recordings you'll probably find it easy to forget that he was playing them on a straight Bach 50 with a 1.5G. The album Spirit of the Horn, where he plays with Bill Watrous is really quite phenomenal but unless you're really paying attention or are very familiar with both players, figuring out who is who is actually surprisingly difficult.

Slide Hampton, Bill Watrous, any professional bass trombonist in a top symphony oder opera.... Well...

But: The TO is a high schooler. Probably he does not yet have twenty years of professional experience and thirty years of daily practise including one hour of four octave long tones.

As I already said: It can be done. But...?

Tooloud wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:16 am Slide Hampton, Bill Watrous, any professional bass trombonist in a top symphony oder opera.... Well...

But: The TO is a high schooler. Probably he does not yet have twenty years of professional experience and thirty years of daily practise including one hour of four octave long tones.

As I already said: It can be done. But...?

You might need to elucidate your point; I don't follow at all. The Slide, Bill, and any professional bass trombonist are great role models for a high schooler. OP didn't ask if he could cram 30 years of daily practice into the next month.

To elucidate: I think he has the one or the other a little bit more useful thing to learn. That's all. And trombone skils impress no one in the real world - except perhaps some trombone nerds. So his motives to do what he has in mind are not quite persuasive.

Btw: At which age do the american teachers put kiddies already on bass trombones? Don't they start playing "trombone"? "Role models"... Is makeing music not a better motivation than the wish to be like someone?
The other thing, in my opinion, is for the sports-boys...