Keep the corners tight or nah??

[kingtempo504]

Came across this video. And it's the first time I've heard this from any advanced brass player. Does anyone here agree with him from a trombone perspective?? Or was Delfaeyo Marsalis telling me the right thing ("keep your corners tight)? Would love input from you guys... Here's the video....

[Slideorama]

Keep your corners firm.

[harrisonreed]

I'm three minutes in and I haven't heard anything but "guys, guys, relax the corners, ok. Just relax the corners. If you go to schlomo university, they'll teach you their way. But if you go to Catholic school they'll teach you their way."

Let's look at the corners of a trumpet player we've actually heard of. Not death grip firm, but they aren't like loose. The corners help control the aperture

[Burgerbob]

"advanced brass player"

[Pre59]

I never think about them, and the idea seems like a distraction to me, for no tangible gain.

[Doug Elliott]

"Corners" and "cheeks" are two different things.
Relax the cheeks.

Dizzy's corners are tight.

I just love that out of tune intro to that guy's video.

[harrisonreed]

Yeah I noticed that too.

also:

"I haven't played yet today, let's see..."
*ffwahhh fah t-tahhhh*

Oh yeah, baby. Keep them corners loose, son!

[hyperbolica]

Here's that intro done better by Winton Marsalis:


Yeah, I was going to mention he never really identifies "the corners" but seems to imply the cheeks. Loose skin on the cheeks is unrelated to the corners.

Plus, when you have been playing with firm corners for years, you don't even think about them. When it's a new thing for someone, they have to concentrate on doing it. This is part of the reason I hate hearing advice from old timers who just don't think about what they do. Maybe what they do is natural, maybe they had to practice it for a long time, but when trying to teach someone else, you can't just say "just do it", you've got to at least show an example. On the other hand, I don't think deconstructing to the most minuscule nth amount is helpful for most people. It has to be some sort of action that can become natural, and you don't have direct control over every muscle in your body. There's got to be some sort of visualization to help your mind direct your body what to do.

I had a teacher my last two years of high school who was a bass trombonist. He never tried to teach me how to play bass trombone, but he fixed my tenor embouchure and got me on a better mouthpiece. I had been playing the Remington that came with my 88h, and he switched me to a 5g. This was back in the early 80s before all the options we have now. Plus, he pretty much ignored my mouthpiece placement, just letting me do what came naturally (which is high placement, slightly displaced to one side because of dental imperfections), and just got me started with firming up the corners and the area under/around the mouthpiece. He described it as a "pucker", which I wasn't able to do, but my body (and my ear) found the right way. The way I would describe it would be to make the lips as dense as possible under the mouthpiece. It took a lot of practice and a bit of discomfort, but eventually, it started working.

When I studied with John Swallow 3 years later, he never addressed my embouchure. I know it wasn't/isn't perfect, at least it wasn't bad enough to warrant fixing at that point.

[AndrewMeronek]

I have a hard time following the OP video just because the guy repeats himself and takes his sweet time getting to the point. Not a fan of that lecturing style.

[harrisonreed]

Trumpet.



corners look good.

[StephenK]

I remember Alison Balsom playing at the proms, I'd guess it it isn't just the corners of the mouth held firm. A friend (a pro trumpeter) had a lesson with her about then. One thing she did was push her fist into his stomach so hard it hurt, to check how firm the tummy muscles were.

[BurckhardtS]

I just love that out of tune intro to that guy's video.

Glad I wasn't the only one that noticed that...

[baileyman]

Well, has he clipped the original fanfare into his vid? My recollection is that one was done by an historical instrument performer on a double length baroque trumpet.

All these instructions like "tight corners" "flat chin" "low tongue" "compression" "fast air" "warm air" "polka-dotted air" seem subject to being taken too far, putting too much effort into them. It also seems useful to deliberately do both too much effort and too little, as then a feel for where the happy middle is may show up.

[Pre59]

Plus, when you have been playing with firm corners for years, you don't even think about them. When it's a new thing for someone, they have to concentrate on doing it. This is part of the reason I hate hearing advice from old timers who just don't think about what they do.

I try to put the focus as close the m/p as possible, and I look like I have "corners" but that's a result of my focus, and not a conscious decision to create them.

(I'm an "old timer" by the way..)

[hyperbolica]

(I'm an "old timer" by the way..)

I was thinking of a couple of people who told stories I heard recently. Maybe they were true, maybe not. One was about John Coffey who told a friend of mine "just tongue and blow, kid, just tongue and blow". I hope he got more from his lessons than that.

Another was more recent (in the last week?) here on the forum some one told a story of a teacher describing how to breathe by asking the student to cough. Maybe its profound, but I don't get it.

I'm sure for the old pros, that's all they thought of when they play - its simple, just do it. But someone learning doesn't have the memory of what it feels like to do that, and it's hard to communicate.

[bonafide]

My cheeks puff out sometimes. I was surprised to notice that. I thought it went against the canon.

It works, though. I listened closely for air leakage and didn't hear any. As long as you're getting the sound you want with no fuzz or air leakage, I don't think it really matters how you set the horn.

[kingtempo504]

Thanks everyone for the input. Thanks Doug..

[Pre59]

I'm sure for the old pros, that's all they thought of when they play - its simple, just do it. But someone learning doesn't have the memory of what it feels like to do that, and it's hard to communicate.

The old pros were young once, and faced similar problems as beginners do now. But now we have the internet, for good and ill. There's also a kind a churn of educational material and ideas; techniques get discarded and replaced, some of the exercises that I use don't seem to be talked about anymore. But current terms and ideas like "corners" and the deliberate raising of the tongue to aid higher tones are relatively new to me, and I have a pretty useful high range without being aware of them.

I was taught by professional players who didn't think that I had an embouchure problem, The one person who realised that I did painted such a gloomy picture of how long it would take me to fix the problem, that I put the Tbn on the back burner for a number of years and concentrated on the Double Bass and Bass Gtr.
As it happens I did sort myself out, and ironically it didn't take that long, weeks not years..

[BGuttman]

My cheeks puff out sometimes. I was surprised to notice that. I thought it went against the canon.

It works, though. I listened closely for air leakage and didn't hear any. As long as you're getting the sound you want with no fuzz or air leakage, I don't think it really matters how you set the horn.

I've known a few players who have a slight bulge in the cheeks when they play. Not necessarily a problem. But Dizzy is definitely an exception and not to be emulated in that fashion (but playing licks is another matter!). The only time I puff out cheeks is for circular breathing.

[PaulT]

Corners aside...

When I see a great player with cheeks so puffed they look like they could pop, I wonder, does that allow them to store extra air (as a hamster does kibble treats?

I am not about to try any cheek-puffery myself. My cheeks don't puff. They don't want to. And I don't want them to (for fear I will end up looking a worn out floppy-jowled coonhound). As cheeks aren't lungs, I don't suppose they allow the intake of more air than the lungs can hold, but cheek puffers, the good ones, have stumbled on something that works for them. And puffed cheeks do hold more air in the mouth than un-puffed cheeks.

Are puffed cheeks an aid or something great talent overcomes and/or ignores?

[harrisonreed]

Yeah but is the extra stored actual useable air? Your cheeks are not the same as your diaphragm.

[Doug Elliott]

You have to puff your cheeks to circular breathe, but that also involves pulling them back in to keep the sound going while you inhale through your nose. So it really is storage kind of like a hamster.

I occasionally puff intentionally for a few seconds just to relax them, if I feel my cheeks getting tight in a way I know they shouldn't be.

There are some trumpet players who puff slightly and it helps them create volume, with no negative effect as long as it stays away from the corners. Watch this video of the Candoli brothers - Pete has a puff, Conte doesn't. They also happen to be different embouchure types, in case you've been following that thread here.

[imsevimse]

I found this article 10 years ago. This is what can happen if you continue to play with the wrong technique. You will have cheeks hanging on your chest. Read this!!! That will teach you...
https://2b06260c-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.go ... directs=0

/Tom

[harrisonreed]

I remember Alison Balsom playing at the proms, I'd guess it it isn't just the corners of the mouth held firm. A friend (a pro trumpeter) had a lesson with her about then. One thing she did was push her fist into his stomach so hard it hurt, to check how firm the tummy muscles were.

You sure he didn't do something dumb or socially unacceptable first?

[Doubler]

FWIW - According to an interview I read in a music magazine ages ago, Dizzy regretted puffing his cheeks after it was too late to correct the situation. He said that if he'd known the proper way to blow when he started, he'd never have acquired the habit and damaged his face. He played well in spite of this, not because of it.

[LeTromboniste]

I haven't watched the whole video so I won't emit an opinion on his approach.

But I think words matter and while I don't think corners should be loose, I also think "tight" is a potentially dangerous word to use with musicians. To me it implies tension. Yet the various parts of our body involved in playing our instrument can and should be firm while also being relaxed - I don't see that as antitheticaL. The same way that keeping the body relaxed is not antithetical with support. The biggest take away from my singing lessons or being accompanied by vocal coaches over the years is probably that keeping something firm is more akin to keeping it involved. And you can absolutely make something tight without actually making it involved (or efficiently involved).

And for the comments about the intro fanfare, this is obviously played on baroque trumpet, so keep in mind that in addition to being quite a bit harder to play that way, that recording might very well have been with a different tuning system. "Out of tune" from equal temperament doesn't make it out of tune.

[Doug Elliott]

I was specifically referring to octaves that were far off.... that's not a tuning system.

I don't disagree about tension vs "involved" but he's advocating "relax the corrners" when when that's the one place you actually do want firmness.

[timothy42b]

Probably most of us ams do work too hard, doing things with muscle that should be done with airstream direction or tongue level. That's been touched on in some recent threads, I should probably link to them but I'll start a separate thread.

There are some trumpet teachers who really focus on relaxation. An example is this long long long article about the 19/30s exercise, where you play avoiding any tension in the corners.

http://www.rustyrussell.com/1930s/1930sRev.pdf

If you are actually able to get to the end of it, on page 10 he realizes that the corners are not the end of the lips, and he does use firmness in the area below the lower lip. He could have skipped the first 5 pages of his academic history! But it's a testimonial and follows the usual rules.

[Pre59]

...................... on page 10 he realizes that the corners are not the end of the lips, and he does use firmness in the area below the lower lip.

I do that, it's like the air/enegy focuses down to a single point, but the rest of the body is relaxed.

[kingtempo504]

And one more..

[imsevimse]

His philosophy is "education is brainwash"? That's what he said. Well that means he is trying his best to brainwash us since he is trying to educate us. He is also trying to sell a lot of books and videos about a subject he says he is the only one who can do, except a few dead guys he use to confirm the success of this method. Now I listened to the whole video and I think his sound is awful. He gets the notes but I would not want to hear that sound. It is that kind of sound that hurts my ears. I know people who sound like that. They can not scream that high for which I'm thankful.

"Firm corners" v.s "tight corners" v.s "involved corners". You can call it anything you want. Is it some muscle work involved to form the emboushure from the sides?

I think most professional teachers and players agree there is work in that area.

This trumpet player has a strange appearance to me. I have never heard of him and he seems both nervous and unfocused and when he grab his cheeks while buzzing some muscle work holds his lips in position. If not the corners then it must be the top lip and the bottom lip that are pinched together. All the players in the end of that movie had some activity going on around the mouth corners. Their faces looked relaxed, but that is another thing. In fact they looked much more relaxed than he did but I saw no corners were loose in any of those players pictures. The corners looked firm. I don't see he makes a good point.

If you press the lips flat together the sound on trombone will be very pinched. It is probably not the same on an oboe or a saxophone. Is that the muscle work he advice you to do instead?

He does not talk about the importance of a good sound. I think that might be a clue to how to value this information.

We can not discard every other aspect there is of playing an instrument to focus on getting a high note alone. Just to be able to produce notes on an instrument is not enough, the sound must be good in the whole register.

I have seen a lot of different players, mostly trumpet players, who show how they do odd things. Things they say they use and want to teach. The problem is when they demonstrate it sounds bad. Often it only works in the high register for them and they get the high notes with a pinched sound. When they play an octave lower in the bread register it is not pleasant sound at all. That's when I stop listening. That's when my judgement tunes in and guide my to seek knowledge elsewhere.

/Tom

[Pre59]

...................... on page 10 he realizes that the corners are not the end of the lips, and he does use firmness in the area below the lower lip.

I do that, it's like the air/enegy focuses down to a single point, but the rest of the body is relaxed.

Here's Bill Watrous showing us about muscle focus.




..playing beautifully in spite of the rhythm section.




[quiethorn]

..playing beautifully in spite of the rhythm section.




Yeah Ron Carter, Chick Corea, Billy Cobham... whoever heard from any of those guys ever again.

[Pre59]

Bill W was playing one way and they were playing another..

[quiethorn]

Bill W was playing one way and they were playing another..

I'm quite inclined to agree with this.

[timothy42b]

Thoughts.

To my eyes Bill does have firmness in that corner and below. At the same time he looks about ten times more relaxed than I do. I think that supports my idea that I (I guess I should stop speaking for all ams) do too much with muscle and too little with technique.

The trumpet player in the video says he plays well in the lyrical middle range. To my ears he loses tone on many of those notes, and I get the same feeling when I play when I fail to do the motion correctly - the note might speak but it doesn't want to center. So I wouldn't be so quick to praise that middle range playing. I think he should take a lesson with Doug. Hee, hee.

He makes an interesting assertion, that tight corners go with lips collapsed forward. There might be something to that. We do want lips to exactly meet, per Doug's "just touching" and Sam's "saloon doors." But also the upper lip does more of the vibrating so needs to be looser, right? If this trumpet player is compressing then it seems as if they both are equally firm. Well, it wouldn't be the first time somebody wasn't doing what he thinks he's doing.

I've been traveling a week without a horn, and I'm coming off a three week layoff for surgery. I played a half hour non strenuous warmup this morning, and my corners are tired. Not my lips at all, but the ends of the lip area, even though I was focusing on firmness only in the area Doug says to, and relaxing above there. So, I dunno.

[dershem]

I do that, it's like the air/enegy focuses down to a single point, but the rest of the body is relaxed.

Here's Bill Watrous showing us about muscle focus.




..playing beautifully in spite of the rhythm section.




Heh. You can be guaranteed that every decision made in that group was agreed on by everyone in it. When you play with people at that level, you know what you're getting, and you don't agree unless you agree.
I've stood within a yard of Bill when he was doing clinics, and he was always very relaxed, but only the sort of relaxed you can be when the chops are in ideal shape to start with. Not an iota of tension that isn't called for.

[Pre59]

Going back to the topic of "Keep the corners tight or nah??". Since it appeared I've been experimenting with consciously using corners, and while it wasn't too uncomfortable after a while I did think that it changed my tonguing. I found that doodle tonguing was better, (a big surprise) but my single tonguing and my mouth cavity felt more constricted, and my tone was a little brighter.
I don't think at this late stage that there are serious gains to be made for me, YMMV.

[harrisonreed]

Corners are only useful if you cut them, according to this "advanced brass player" in the OP's video. Hahaha

[kingtempo504]

So advanced he claims wynton marsalis lost his chops. But he can help get them back.

[Pre59]

I woke this morning realising that the A section of Nancy (in the Bill W Video) has the same chord sequence* as Body and Soul.

I thought I'd share that..


*Ok, apart from 2 chords out 4 in the Ist time bar.