TromboneChat

One of the first things I've noticed on playing trombone, as contrasted with my trumpet/French horn playing, is breath. Suddenly, my breath just doesn't have the staying power I have on my smaller horns. Does anyone have any suggestions on developing breath volume?

I know the mechanics, so we can skip that part, and I'm not one who has "paralysis by analysis". I just don't care about scientific minutiae. I fall into the basic camp that "the body follows the mind". So, I'm just looking for some basic, beginner's exercise/learning tools, and not too complex.

Thanks, Gary.

You can't really increase your lung capacity. You might be able to learn to tap into lung capacity that you haven't been using.

It is best to just breathe normally. If your breath is not producing results, there is a lot of can do with your throat and tongue to focus the air and dial in the perceived resistance. Resistance is a good thing.

To add to Harrison’s reply: Physiologically, you can’t increase your lung capacity, but you can increase the useable portion of your lung capacity, and you can learn to spend the breath more wisely. The Breathing Gym by Sam Pilafian and Patrick Sheridan is a great place to start.

That's a funny quote.

I once was taking a trumpet lesson from a 1st-call L.A. studio player who was pretty practical. I had been in college with a lot of scientific micro-analyses of playing and was a little confused about breathing and breath support. So I asked him, how do you breath?

"Cough" he said.
I did.
"That's how", he said, LOL.

This is also partly dependent on age. I noticed that in my 60s I was just losing the capability I used to have to hold long notes in the tuba contrabass register in particular. (I've also lost my ability to do circular breathing, but that's more of a story about practice and use.)

If it's possible that your problem may be partly age-related (which I must suspect from a prior posting mentioning your 50 years of experience on trumpet and horn), then I'm afraid you're stuck with it. Breathe more frequently -- and yeah, that will mean you can't hold a low note through three measures (or maybe even two). And there's definitely a difference in large bore vs. small bore instruments.

Also, some mouthpieces are "more efficient" than others (which I take to mean that they don't require as much effort to produce the result). So you might consider experimenting with some other mouthpieces -- ones of somewhat smaller capacity or different backbore. But there are tradeoffs there, of course.

There are costs to aging. This is one of them.

There's really only one breathing 'exercise' specific to the torso muscles that control the lungs that I recommend:

4-in/4-hold/4-out/4-hold yoga breathing and variations on timings. The only thing I am adamant about is to *never* close off the airway during the holds. Force those muscles to maintain the lungs being entirely full or entirely empty; don't relax and 'hold your breath' so to speak. One way to think about that is that the 'holds' are effectively trying to get beyond last 1% of inhalation or exhalation.

The most frequent reason I have seen for "not enough air" is inefficiency of the buzz. Going from a smaller instrument to a larger one, it's really easy to waste a lot of air and not realize it.

Do a lot of extremely soft playing so your capacity matches your expectations. That practice will help efficiency so you can add a little more volume and not use any more air

Take a deep yawn that's all. Use the muscles of your stomach as an air pump.

Good luck.

Yeah, folks, I'm 74 years old and have had a couple of strokes, including a lung operation, so some of it may have to do with aging and lifestyle choices catching up with me.

BTW, I'm no stranger to Yogic breathing.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:48 pm The most frequent reason I have seen for "not enough air" is inefficiency of the buzz. Going from a smaller instrument to a larger one, it's really easy to waste a lot of air and not realize it.

Do a lot of extremely soft playing so your capacity matches your expectations. That practice will help efficiency so you can add a little more volume and not use any more air

I have a friend from many years ago and I saw his air efficiency improve immediately and noticeably after an embouchure adjustment that improved his buzz. This coincided with a noticeable improvement in his tone.

Gary wrote: ↑Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:29 pm BTW, I'm no stranger to Yogic breathing.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

No problem - a lot of people are, but it's usually worth bring up just in case.

If you play the same pitch on both trumpet and bone your breath should last just about the same, as the lips meter the airflow as a function of pitch and volume.

Not quite so. It also depends on the resistance of the instrument (with is a function of bore size as well as other factors). I know I can't play a note as long on my bass trombone as I can on a tenor. Some of the breath estimates by Claude Gordon (based on trumpet) in his method book are ridiculous on trombone.

I notice a big difference when switching between instruments with different bores. Bigger diameter tubing requires more air. If I go from a month of playing bass to playing a 500 bore horn, I notice that I have to plan my air differently. It feels strange to need to exhale at the end of a phrase, which never happens on bass, but happens frequently on smaller horns.

Likewise, when switching from small to large, I have to remember how to inhale fully as quickly as I can. Open your mouth and air passages and just inhale like you mean it. Practice doing that and getting enough air for the larger horn. And then it's not bad to practice getting the most efficient buzz you can get with the larger aperture needed for the larger horn. The efficiency just takes a lot of takes practice. Well, sucking in a lot of air does too. Practice breathing every day. Practice tone efficiency everytime you have the horn to your face.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:53 am Not quite so. It also depends on the resistance of the instrument (with is a function of bore size as well as other factors).

Yeah, and try it in the 2nd octave below the staff on tuba, especially with a large mouthpiece and open backbore.

Urbie Green Model. I assume that's medium or small bore?

Gary wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:05 pm Urbie Green Model. I assume that's medium or small bore?

Small Bore.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:53 am Not quite so. It also depends on the resistance of the instrument (with is a function of bore size as well as other factors). I know I can't play a note as long on my bass trombone as I can on a tenor. Some of the breath estimates by Claude Gordon (based on trumpet) in his method book are ridiculous on trombone.

Baileyman is essentially right, if we add buzzing efficiency. If the buzz is perfectly efficient, the volume of air that passes the lips given the same pitch and volume is the same no matter the mouthpiece, bore, or other characteristics. People can perceive a difference if:

- their buzz (and therefore their tone) is not as good on a larger horn.
- they play louder but don't realize they are on a larger horn.
- they confuse an increase in pushing air out due to resistance to the actual volume of air moved on a larger horn.
- they compare apples to oranges in the sense of larger instruments generally being played at lower pitch ranges but only compare air usage in general playing, not specific to the same pitches.
- they confuse increased effort to maintain pitch on a larger mouthpiece/bore with using a different volume of air.

I'd be more inclined to buy into Baileyman's generalization if we added the condition of "on the same mouthpiece" -- and this is also inline with some of the points you make. Otherwise, it's a bit misleading to say that playing the same pitch note on a tuba and on a trumpet will take the same amount of air. At the very least, I'm not willing to go that far on the basis of a thought experiment or simple considerations of vibration frequency. I'd want some more hard data in terms of actual air flow under experimental conditions.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:16 pm I'd want some more hard data in terms of actual air flow under experimental conditions.

That's absolutely fair.

But, I'm not trying to be misleading. The same note at the same volume with good tone on different mouthpieces *should* use the same volume of air.

I'll add one more caveat, though:

The lips generally don't vibrate the entire width of the rim when you play. But in low registers or very loud playing, they can, and at that point I'd expect to see deviations in air volume usage because the buzz is getting constricted by available space.

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:53 pm

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:16 pm I'd want some more hard data in terms of actual air flow under experimental conditions.

The same note at the same volume with good tone on different mouthpieces *should* use the same volume of air.

First, this is definitely NOT my experience with tuba mouthpieces on a tuba. And I'm really skeptical that it's true on trombone. Second, there is a lot of literature out there in the physics/acoustics domain indicating that diameter of the tube has a definite effect on what's needed to generate a particular pitch.

So just curious: Based on exactly what reasoning do you draw this "should" conclusion?

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:46 pm First, this is definitely NOT my experience with tuba mouthpieces on a tuba. And I'm really skeptical that it's true on trombone.

Interesting. My personal experience is not this, even to the point where I can play a low C on a trumpet and middle B-flat on trombone and be able to hold the notes for roughly the same duration.

Second, there is a lot of literature out there in the physics/acoustics domain indicating that diameter of the tube has a definite effect on what's needed to generate a particular pitch.

So just curious: Based on exactly what reasoning do you draw this "should" conclusion?

I'd like to see that literature. My understanding is that when I play a note, the sound waves 'mode lock' with an antinode at the bell and a node at the lips, with different numbers of antinodes in the resonating chamber corresponding to different partials. The size of the bore doesn't really matter in this sense, although the overall shape does: in a perfect cylinder, this results in partials sounding only odd harmonics, but trombones are not perfect cylinders, so the placement of antinodes is warped by the shapes the sound is resonating in - generally, from the combo of the bell and mouthpiece/leadpipe shapes, to bring the partials closer together. And, as far as the buzz goes, the pitch buzzed is determined by the air speed, temperature/density of air, material elasticity of the lips, and the size of the aperture; and not anything else, as long as the 'mode lock' happens. Mouthpiece size isn't part of that equation, as long as the mouthpiece isn't restricting the size of the aperture.

All that said, I certainly can see different mouthpieces causing differing air usage. I just think that this is more likely a result of differences in how good a player's tone is - i.e., buzzing efficiency - between mouthpieces, not due to the size in of itself.

I could be totally wrong - if I am, tell me why!

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:48 pm The most frequent reason I have seen for "not enough air" is inefficiency of the buzz. Going from a smaller instrument to a larger one, it's really easy to waste a lot of air and not realize it.

Do a lot of extremely soft playing so your capacity matches your expectations. That practice will help efficiency so you can add a little more volume and not use any more air

Yes, this is what I do. It has helped a lot. Efficient use of air can be worked at with very soft playing. It may not make you longs bigger but it may make you able to play longer phrases.

/Tom

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:57 am I notice a big difference when switching between instruments with different bores. Bigger diameter tubing requires more air. If I go from a month of playing bass to playing a 500 bore horn, I notice that I have to plan my air differently. It feels strange to need to exhale at the end of a phrase, which never happens on bass, but happens frequently on smaller horns.

I envy you

I don't think I ever have had the problem "To much air"

/Tom

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:16 pm I could be totally wrong - if I am, tell me why!

I think I'll pass on this invitation. You're expressing things about your own experience and you have a kind of theoretical basis (though, I'd argue, an overly simplistic one) to justify it. So on that basis you want to generalize your perception to the point where you're denying that the observations and experiences of several others among us are veridical: your experiences/perceptions are accurate, but ours are not. Exposing the limitations of your theoretical views concerning buzzing and tube diameter would involve basically writing a research paper summarizing a lot of complicated stuff in the acoustics of tubes. I'm not inclined to go in that direction. If I were, I'd start out by looking at the issues of "end correction" (and how that may affect flow, pitch, and energy requirements) and other phenomena that go on when the standing wave is established. But I won't.

In terms of our own differences regarding the perceptions here, my only speculation is this: I think you can get the impression, switching between trumpet and trombone, that there isn't much (if any) difference in the required air volume/flow. But those two instruments aren't all that far apart, and if you strongly believe that it's only the frequency of the buzz that matters, it's easy to convince yourself that any relatively minor apparent difference is something idiosyncratic and not related to the hardware or physics. Those of us who spend much of our time in the lower (and contra) registers have a very different view -- because (just as harmonics get closer together in the higher registers), those differences in the lower registers are more pronounced and obvious. They're also more pronounced and obvious if your lung capacity or breathing efficiency is compromised in some way.

I have a spirometer that my wife obtained for Physical Therapy following surgery, and now I'm wondering how much capacity is considered normal? It ranges from 0 up to 4000 ml.

Usually above 2000 ml. It's hard to give a clear number. And being below 2000 ml is not necessarily fatal.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:38 am Usually above 2000 ml. It's hard to give a clear number. And being below 2000 ml is not necessarily fatal.

So, 2000 is adequate for trombone players?

2000 is what they wanted me to do with 4 cracked ribs. I think I was a little over. The idea is to try to increase it a little bit at a time. Then you will hit some kind of limit. We all do.

Don't get too hung up on numbers. And use it properly -- your wife should show you how she was instructed to use the thing. If you don't use it properly you can lead yourself astray.

Thanks. I'm following instructions, so that is not a problem. I was just wondering how the 2000 number stacks up as regards to the ability to inhale for long/short passages, etc....

Seems to me I’ve heard bragging about 4l capacities.

Our lung capasity is largest at the age 19-22, after that it is decreasing. It is decreasing faster if we don´t do something to keep the lungs working, like exercise or playing windinstrments. Low tones take more air. Trombone takes more air compared to trumpet because the range. The way of playing makes a big differnce, playing subtones takes very much air, playing with a efficient embouchure takes less air.