Playing loud with projection - lip compression or not?

[henrikbe]

Hi!

I've been working on my loud playing (one of my many many weaknesses), and reading Alistair Kay's "How to play really loud" has been quite helpful. In particular, it focuses on lip compression, which is something I've not been thinking about at all until now.

But then, now I've stumbled upon this blog post, by a horn player:

http://jonathanhornthoughts.blogspot.co ... d.html?m=1

According to this guy, what you should do to get great projection is to "avoid tightening the lips". This is because tightening the lips causes the sound to become too brassy, with too many overtones.

Is this correct? I've used to think that the overtones are what causes the sound to project. Is that not right? And according to Kay, we need lip compression to focus the sound.

Any thoughts on this?

[Burgerbob]

Tightness is bad.

Compression with the right amount of engagement is not.

It's a goldilocks thing, IMO.

[Doug Elliott]

As with everything else, it depends on where you're coming from.

If you're already too tight you need to "avoid tightening" or relax. If you don't have enough muscle to control more volume, you need to use more "lip compression."

Yes it's a Goldilocks thing but no correct answer "more, or less." It's both, or maybe neither.

[Neo Bri]

Many times, the correct amount of "compression" can be found simply by free-buzzing, and what I call buzz-ins and buzz-outs. Free-buzzing and placing the mouthpiece on while continuing the buzz is often a good way to know how much compression is required. Usually artificially squishing more lip into the mouthpiece leads to an artificial, and maybe an unsustainable, result.

[henrikbe]

Thanks for your replies. So I guess it's a question of finding the right amount of compression, as you say.

But what about the conflict between the two views? Is there a real conflict? One of them tells me to compress lips, to get focus and a "burn", the other warns against too many overtones and "brassiness" (which perhaps is the same as "burn", more or less?). Are these two in conflict, or can you have both at the same time?

[afugate]

Maybe this is too simplistic, but I think these are trying to do two different things. I think Al Kay's approach is about cutting through a band, like a big band lead player. And Jonathan's approach is about creating a bigger/broader sound that carries.

What *you* do and how you need to do it is the question...

--Andy in OKC

[norbie2018]

This is a masterclass with Dietmar Kublbock of the Vienna Philharmonic; the student I'd paying Mahler 3. You are welcome to watch the entire clip, but his recommendations to the student begin at about 1:57 and I think shed light on this discussion:

[baileyman]

What the heck is lip compression? Compressing the aperture?

You know, one can buzz out of two ends. The head end operates by Bernoulli where low pressure induces resonance in the flabbiness surrounding the lip aperture.

The other end buzzes by sphincter compression and forced expulsion. Is that it?

Meanwhile, loudness is essentially increasing contribution of higher frequencies to the sound. The fundamental only gets a little louder. Try it and listen.

[imsevimse]

Interesting. I thought of that clip right when I started to read this thread and hated that I had not saved it. I had exactly that moment in mind. Now I can check it out again.

Thank you!

As louder playing is to produce larger amplitude it means the lips must be allowed to vibrate more. If you do not allow larger amplitude and hold "too" tight then the sound will not be louder. The chance is it will be brighter and the big difference is it has only got more of the high colors in the sound. The brighter sound might be more prominent, but that might not be the same thing as everything is louder. If you do not allow the sound to expand over the whole spectrum when you use more air then your overall sound spanning all dynamics will come out as very unbalanced. How to allow higher amplitude? More air and back off from the mouthpiece should help, but it is just one part of the puzzle.

Compare a loud note to what it is when you play the same note soft. Listen to the sound. Maybe you produce a narrow and "bright" sound instead of a fullbodied colorful and loud sound when you add air. I guess the difference could be described as bright verses dark.

A thing that is overlooked is that a lot is on the other side of the lips, the soft tissue side, not the trombone side but the rest which is your body. We often concentrate on the lips and the blow, the angle, the mouthpiece, the mouthpipe and the trombone but forget the rest of the body. What it does and does not, is really what make us perform different. Why shouldn't that be of great importance and concern on how we sound. I think we should talk more about how we approach the instrument, both for soft and loud playing to find the deep voice from our bodies. That video clip is great with the trombonist from Vienna. A raised torso, two filled lungs and an open throat and a low larynx and not to 'brassy" lips are all ways how to manipulate ones sound. I don't know how scientific that is but as I'm also a singer I have often had moments when I have realised singing and playing have a lot in common especially when to overcome a brassy sound.

/Tom

[baileyman]

Spectra:

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html#pff

[Pre59]

Spectra:

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html#pff

This piece includes the following,

This is one of the first things a brass player learns: you close your mouth, pull your lips back in a strange smile, and blow.


Smile and press! Really?

[imsevimse]

Spectra:

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html#pff

This piece includes the following,

This is one of the first things a brass player learns: you close your mouth, pull your lips back in a strange smile, and blow.


Smile and press! Really?

Yes I read that too in that link.
Smile? I would advice from any feel of a smile when you play. It is from my own experience. A smile is not a good foundation to form any emboushure, it is better as a newbee to try do some free buzzing, just to look and buzz and not to give any information att all.

/Tom

[baileyman]

Spectra:

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html#pff

This piece includes the following,

This is one of the first things a brass player learns: you close your mouth, pull your lips back in a strange smile, and blow.


Smile and press! Really?

Sure, that's stupid.

But did you guys see the spectrum of a trombone playing crescendo? That's where it was supposed to link. That's just measuring frequency, has nothing to do with smile. High frequency content rises with volume. It's a rock solid well known acoustical result. It's the way the horn works. The pro video previously is of a guy altering the acoustics of his mouth and (he claims) his throat to deaden internal resonance (deliberately mismatch the tuning) so as to lessen the higher frequencies. He did that for personal artistic reasons. Fine.

Go back to the original poster. Deal with what he says.

He said, in part, "I've used to think that the overtones are what causes the sound to project."

And you know, that's absolutely right. That's what loud is for a horn. That's how it works.

In previous threads in the previous Forum, that kind of loud was called "great sound".

[imsevimse]

Sure "overtones" is what makes the sound project. I agree but to project is to me not the same as to play loud, and to have a sound that project might not always be good. I come to think of a trumpet player I know. He is rather good actually. The problem I have with his playing is he is always to loud. It might be the high overtones is too loud. The result is his sound can not blend. The only possible part for him is the lead part. No matter what you tell him everything is to prominent. This is projection but it is not a good thing. It could be good if he could adopt, but he can't do that and that's too bad.
I don't know if a sound that projects well is the same as a loud sound. Interesting thought. It may be true, but anyhow you need to be able to change your sound so you can blend well with others.

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

The differences in orchestral sounds as in the video above are significant to someone who is attuned to such things - maybe not obvious to others - but that was not the focus of the acoustics site with the spectrum analysis. High harmonics obviously increase with volume. It's the job of the orchestral player to control and limit that effect. It's the job of the commercial player to use it to advantage for projection.

In a nutshell, that is the basis of the two seemingly conflicting approaches.

But in any case, any individual's needs depend on what they're already doing.

[Pre59]

High harmonics obviously increase with volume. It's the job of the orchestral player to control and limit that effect. It's the job of the commercial player to use it to advantage for projection.

In a nutshell, that is the basis of the two seemingly conflicting approaches.

But in any case, any individual's needs depend on what they're already doing.

In the same way that someone might take an item apart to see how it works, there's a lot to be said for experimenting with an over reduced or loose aperture at differing volumes and registers. I prefer the "aperture" term over compression because there's less room for misunderstanding.
To expect to play at all volumes and registers using the same aperture/air is a big ask IMO.

[torobone]

Note: As I learn more about my playing and sound, the more I have also learned that each person's journey is unique. I'm therefore becoming more reluctant to provide advice, as people need to figure things out for themselves. Some teachers help with this topic, while other teachers haven't figured it out yet. That being said:

As an enthusiastic student of Al Kay, I was experimenting with compression when I contacted him for my first lesson. This was after I had played for 40 years.I regularly point people to Al's website for the clinic sheets.

Compression is part of playing loud, particularly for building range. One exercise Al had me do was to start on the 4th line F and "squeeze" the F to be sharp and then continue to have it become a flat Bb. Continue up as high as you can go. Yes, you need to support the notes as you go, but I like to think that the air supports what you are doing with your face rather than the common mantra of "blowing more air".

There are other important aspects such as controlling your embouchure so it doesn't blow apart at louder volumes, and centering your notes to get the overtones mentioned by other posters. I have seen very little written on these topics other than by Al Kay.

I have 39 pages of clinic sheets from Al. I'll make a New Years resolution to write to him for his permission to scan and distribute these.

[Roberto28]

Does anybody know what equipment Mr. kublbock uses?

[Enelson]

Thein has a Dietmar Küblbock model, which I’ve seen him on, but I don’t know if that’s his latest equipment.

https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/0 ... hp?lang=en