TromboneChat

Is there a large shank 12C or equivalent available?

Thanks,

Paul

Not sure if Bach ever made a large shank 12c, but you could find the equivalent from Doug Elliot and his line of mouthpieces. What horn are you using it for?

There is something caled a 12C-T (the T is under the 12C). It may have been a special order. It's a 12C cup and rim on a large shank. There are a bunch of different sizes. I have a 4C-T and I've seen a 7C-T. They show up on Ebay from time to time.

Large shank 12C used to be commonly included with large bore student horns.

Thanks for the info. I will have to keep my eyes out for one.

Well FWIW I have a small shank 6-1/2AL that I bought because the King 606 that I was renting came with a 12C. I've returned the King and am shopping for a horn that will more than likely be a large shank Euphonium or F Attachment Tenor. Hopefully it will come with a commensurate sized mp (5'ish/4'ish) for daily use, but I have seen the 'small shank to large shank' adapter that Bach makes and I'm just saying, if I had a 12C mp already and wanted to stay with that size, that's what, ~$60 invested? Were it I, rather than spend who knows what (a large shank 12C is NOT going to be cheap) in terms of money, and also time trying to find a large shank 12C, I would just get the adapter (https://www.wwbw.com/Bach-381-Small-Sha ... 83858.wwbw) which is sold anywhere brass instruments and accessories are sold and call it very good. /FWIW.

The adapter is not a really good substitute for a properly sized large shank mouthpiece.

Then again, a 12C is a bit small for a large shank trombone, allthough Homer Rodeheaver played an Olds Opera with one (he was an evangelical preacher who also played trombone).

I have never heard of a 12C large shank, they must be very rare. The 12C-T was also news to me. I think the 12C is rather small to use with a large bore but if you really want to play a large bore with a small shank then an adapter works rather well.

/Tom

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:32 pm The adapter is not a really good substitute for a properly sized large shank mouthpiece.

Then again, a 12C is a bit small for a large shank trombone, allthough Homer Rodeheaver played an Olds Opera with one (he was an evangelical preacher who also played trombone).

Are you sure you’re not thinking of Bill Pearce? He used a Bach 12 with a large Shank on an Opera.

Redthunder wrote: ↑Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:02 pm Are you sure you’re not thinking of Bill Pearce? He used a Bach 12 with a large Shank on an Opera.

Homer Rodeheaver played smalll bore trombones, as seen by this photo of him in middle age where he is clearly playing a small bore.

He made his fame as early 20th century evangelist Billy Sunday's music director. He was not the only music director for a famous evangelist who was a trombone player-- Cliff Barrows-- Billy Graham's long time mucis director--was also a trombone player. Maybe trumpet players are too self-promoting to be muscial directors for evangelists.

Rodeheaver most likely played even smaller bores earlier in his career as is evident from the other photo of him as a younger man. Apparently his favorite trombone was stolen a few years before he died and this was very upsetting to him.

He are some links to photos.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 2085712975

https://www.google.com/search?q=homer+r ... vpDWHoydpM:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 3509686604

To the OP:

In general... horns that take large-shank mouthpieces are large-bore trombones. And large-bore trombones play better with bigger mouthpieces. You will be hard pressed to find a very small mouthpiece like a 12C with a large shank. Almost no one can make a combination like that work.

As mentioned above, Bill Pearce made it work very well, but he's certainly an anomaly.

If I could have the gorgeous sound that had, I'd certainly try it, but it doesn't work for most of us at all.

He played a small mp on a large bore nickel silver Old Opera for most of his playing career. Strange combination, indeed!

Bill Pearce is one example, but it’s important to note that while he used a very small rim, the cup was NOT a C cup. It was a straight 12, with a deeper cup and different backbore. This distinction does matter, and a testament to how you can separate rim size from cup depth/shape, and find that you can make all kinds of rims work, big or small. The bigger factor is how those rims fit your face.

Curtis Fuller is another example, as he used a King 28, which is also a 12C sized mouthpiece, also with an Olds Opera, for most of his career.

I believe Fred Wesley plays/played a Yamaha 47, which to my face feels like a 7 or 6&3/4 sized rim with a shallow cup on a large bore Yamaha.

It’s also important to realize that while you can find examples of phenomenal players that use small mouthpieces on large bore trombones, most, if not all, are jazz or commercial trombone players, and not Orchestral players.

All of the above referenced players are/were soloists with a very personal sound and none of them played in trombone sections.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:21 pm All of the above referenced players are/were soloists with a very personal sound and none of them played in trombone sections.

Absolutely, which is kind of what I was getting at. However, both Curtis Fuller and Fred Wesley played in the Basie band for short stints. Although I think Fred Wesley was probably using a 3B at this time. There’s a couple of videos where you can see Curtis playing 3rd bone on YouTube. I’d be curious to hear how their section mates felt about the way they played, and how they adapted to playing in such a strong and colorful trombone section.

Something that works in a "strong and colorful trombone section" basically doesn't work in any other section.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:50 pm Something that works in a "strong and colorful trombone section" basically doesn't work in any other section.

Good point