Endurance and Mouthpiece Size

[TromboneConcerto]

Hi all,

I'm currently playing on a Bach MV 3G on my Shires Large Bore and absolutely love the sound I get on it, though all registers. Perhaps I'm being paranoid, but I feel like my endurance isn't as long as when I play on a smaller mouthpiece.

Is there a correlation between endurance and mouthpiece size?

Let me know what you think.

[BGuttman]

There is an optimum rim size for endurance (or almost anything else). As you go smaller you will find more endurance up to a point, after which going smaller still will actually reduce endurance.

Note that the more you practice, the longer your endurance. If you like the sound you get on a 3G, just practice a lot more on it. Nuts and bolts stuff like long tones and lip slurs.

[norbie2018]

There's an article on the Stork mp website that talks about this issue, namely that incorrect rim size will lead to endurance issues. That same article provides pictures of a number of faces showing thin to thick lips. It might be worth checking out.

[timothy42b]

There is an optimum rim size for endurance (or almost anything else).

That's what I've thought. And still do, except.............

How then do we account for people being able to play trumpet, trombone, and tuba? There is no overlap. The biggest trumpet mouthpiece doesn't approach a small trombone mouthpiece. And those horn players play our bass trombone range on basically a trumpet mouthpiece.

[sirisobhakya]

There is an optimum rim size for endurance (or almost anything else).

That's what I've thought. And still do, except.............

How then do we account for people being able to play trumpet, trombone, and tuba? There is no overlap. The biggest trumpet mouthpiece doesn't approach a small trombone mouthpiece. And those horn players play our bass trombone range on basically a trumpet mouthpiece.

My cornet embouchure is totally different from my bass one, and I can say even my embouchure for small trombone mouthpiece is different from that for bass. There are ranges of mouthpiece diameters that my embouchure stays almost the same, then a shift occurs.

So I think there is an optimum rim size for each embouchure, that means one would have many optimum rim sizes.

[Redthunder]

There's an article on the Stork mp website that talks about this issue, namely that incorrect rim size will lead to endurance issues. That same article provides pictures of a number of faces showing thin to thick lips. It might be worth checking out.

https://storkcustom.com/how-your-lips-d ... ce-choice/

This article seems dubious at best with many of it's claims, and makes no mention of the different embouchure types (which are determined partly, but by no means exclusively by lip shape and size, but less so by the thickness and more so by the length of each lip compared to each other), teeth shape, having an overbite or underbite, or any of the other factors which influence how someone plays a brass instrument, and what the corresponding appropriate mouthpiece would be for that player. There are other articles on Stork's website that make similar claims, and there's this idea that's promoted that certain lip types are "problematic", and also this idea that people with fleshy lips SHOULDN'T play on small rims, because that way more of the red of the lips will be in contact with the rim, which simply is not a real problem, as demonstrated by this blog post by Dave Wilken.

Additionally, Dave has addressed some of the issues with the Stork approach, which can be found here.

And lastly, he's written what I consider to be a much more effective and brief guide on how to choose a rim size based on your embouchure type.

Granted, if a player doesn't know and understand the embouchure type he or she is, this won't be much help, but it's possible to learn about that from a good teacher.

[Driswood]

We have a great resource right here

Doug Elliott

[norbie2018]

There's an article on the Stork mp website that talks about this issue, namely that incorrect rim size will lead to endurance issues. That same article provides pictures of a number of faces showing thin to thick lips. It might be worth checking out.

https://storkcustom.com/how-your-lips-d ... ce-choice/

This article seems dubious at best with many of it's claims, and makes no mention of the different embouchure types (which are determined partly, but by no means exclusively by lip shape and size, but less so by the thickness and more so by the length of each lip compared to each other), teeth shape, having an overbite or underbite, or any of the other factors which influence how someone plays a brass instrument, and what the corresponding appropriate mouthpiece would be for that player. There are other articles on Stork's website that make similar claims, and there's this idea that's promoted that certain lip types are "problematic", and also this idea that people with fleshy lips SHOULDN'T play on small rims, because that way more of the red of the lips will be in contact with the rim, which simply is not a real problem, as demonstrated by this blog post by Dave Wilken.

Additionally, Dave has addressed some of the issues with the Stork approach, which can be found here.

And lastly, he's written what I consider to be a much more effective and brief guide on how to choose a rim size based on your embouchure type.

Granted, if a player doesn't know and understand the embouchure type he or she is, this won't be much help, but it's possible to learn about that from a good teacher.

What specifically is dubious? I'm inferring from what you wrote you are coming from the Reinhardt approach. With all respect, there are other approaches to choosing a mouthpiece which are equally valid.

[Redthunder]

What specifically is dubious?

As I previously wrote:

...makes no mention of the different embouchure types (which are determined partly, but by no means exclusively by lip shape and size, but less so by the thickness and more so by the length of each lip compared to each other), teeth shape, having an overbite or underbite, or any of the other factors which influence how someone plays a brass instrument, and what the corresponding appropriate mouthpiece would be for that player. There are other articles on Stork's website that make similar claims, and there's this idea that's promoted that certain lip types are "problematic", and also this idea that people with fleshy lips SHOULDN'T play on small rims, because that way more of the red of the lips will be in contact with the rim, which simply is not a real problem, as demonstrated by this blog post by Dave Wilken.

All of the factors I listed above which AREN'T mentioned in the stork article are factors that go into determining how a player should play best for their own face, as well as what kind of mouthpiece will work for them.

Check out the link I posted to Dave's blog and read it. Additionally, it is absolutely dubious to make claims about a link between lip fleshiness and mouthpiece diameter required to play successfully when there is no such evidence to suggest this is true. As far as I know, no studies have been done that suggest this, and this article presents it as fact.

I'm inferring from what you wrote you are coming from the Reinhardt approach. With all respect, there are other approaches to choosing a mouthpiece which are equally valid.

Is an approach still valid if it relies on unfounded claims to draw it's conclusions about what mouthpiece is right for different players? If you want to rely on it, fine, but the reason I linked to Dave's blog post is because his claims are backed by direct observation and academic research, not just anecdotes and vague claims about problematic lip types. The author of the Stork article refers to themselves as "Dr. Mouthpiece", implying some kind of deep understanding of these topics, where as Dave has an actual doctorate.

[norbie2018]

If a person doesn't buy into there being a variety of embouchure types, why would they mention them in their article? I don't know if that's the case with the article's author, but it should be reiterated that there are different ways of selecting a mouthpiece which don't involve knowledge of Reinhardt. I agree that there exist a variety of factors which go into mouthpiece selection, and I don't believe the Stork article is the only info out there on this subject. However, it may be a starting point for the OP in his/her quest.

As for the author calling him/herself Dr MP, I don't think anyone would take the Dr part of it seriously.

One other thing, how do you know the info in the article want gleaned from the direct observation of countless customers they've had? You don't need a DMA to make observations and then draw conclusions.

[hyperbolica]

Endurance is not just a function of the mouthpiece, but also other factors including your embouchure, mouthpiece, range, volume, bore of the instrument (how much air you're blowing), lip slur/articulation, etc. I don't think you can reduce it to a single factor. The primary factor is time and quality of practice you put in on a given configuration of factors.

[Doug Elliott]

As someone who has been closely observing players and their relationships to mouthpieces, as well as being a professional player in all genres for over 40 years, I think I have a valid perspective. Much of the traditional mouthpiece advice as presented in catalogs and other places is at best incomplete or completely wrong, but people tend to believe whatever they read.

[sterb225]

A mouthpiece that is suited to your physiology, fitness and technique is the key, regardless of what 'convention' tells us regarding the role of rim/cup size etc. 'Wisdom' would have kept me from trying the mouthpiece I currently love ... range and endurance greatly expanded on what many would suggest is a suicidally large mouthpiece for tenor. Don't be afraid to try things that 'wisdom' would rule out. Though I have not met with Doug for a fitting, all of his comments on the subject (here and in our prior forum) are insightful and many players I hold in very high regard have found the best possible piece for themselves with his assistance.

[Redthunder]

If a person doesn't buy into there being a variety of embouchure types, why would they mention them in their article?

If a person doesn’t buy into a common phenomenon that can be observed with players of every single brass instrument, that’s been written about and researched for more than 70 years by plenty of qualified players, teachers, AND researchers, then I’m definitely not going to rely on them for reliable or even remotely accurate pedagogical information, OR mouthpiece recommendations. Willful ignorance of the different embouchure types doesn’t make them disappear.

As for the author calling him/herself Dr MP, I don't think anyone would take the Dr part of it seriously.

They won’t take it literally, but plenty would take it seriously.

One other thing, how do you know the info in the article want gleaned from the direct observation of countless customers they've had? You don't need a DMA to make observations and then draw conclusions.

I assume this is exactly where the conclusions came from, but knowing what to look for means you’re less likely to draw faulty conclusions, which is easy to do when you don’t control for different variables that are quite easy to miss when observing brass embouchures. You can pretty much reach any conclusion you want if you follow faulty logic or draw conclusions from incomplete information.

There are dozens of different perspectives on every topic under the sun with regards to brass playing. That doesn’t mean they’re all well thought out or correct. So no, they aren’t all “equally valid”.

[harrisonreed]

Sigh.

Just play whatever Charlie Vernon plays. The taperless mouthpiece, even though you have a tenor with a leadpipe

[Leisesturm]

The article linked from Stork Mouthpieces is for and about French Horn players. It has zero relevance to Trombone players. The biggest Horn mouthpiece that Stork makes and that they say is for players with a ultra-huge lip size is actually not as big as the Laskey 85G (18.5mm) that I use occasionally. Most of the time I use a custom 20mm(!) mp that Tom Greer (Moosewood) made for me many years ago. The entire outside diameter of my monster horn mouthpiece fits into the inside diameter of a 6-1/2AL Trombone mouthpiece. I've tried it! In fact my fairly thick lips fit pretty comfortably IN a 12C mouthpiece. I really don't think low brass players need to be concerned with lip size as it relates to mouthpiece inside diameter in any way related to how player of high brass instruments do. You play ON high brass mouthpieces, you play IN low brass mouthpieces.

[Redthunder]

The article linked from Stork Mouthpieces is for and about French Horn players. It has zero relevance to Trombone players. The biggest Horn mouthpiece that Stork makes and that they say is for players with a ultra-huge lip size is actually not as big as the Laskey 85G (18.5mm) that I use occasionally. Most of the time I use a custom 20mm(!) mp that Tom Greer (Moosewood) made for me many years ago. The entire outside diameter of my monster horn mouthpiece fits into the inside diameter of a 6-1/2AL Trombone mouthpiece. I've tried it! In fact my fairly thick lips fit pretty comfortably IN a 12C mouthpiece. I really don't think low brass players need to be concerned with lip size as it relates to mouthpiece inside diameter in any way related to how player of high brass instruments do. You play ON high brass mouthpieces, you play IN low brass mouthpieces.

Brass embouchures on French horn feature the same mechanics as on a Trombone, trumpet, or tuba. All three major embouchure types can be found on each instrument. There is simply more vibrating mass inside of each progressively larger instruments mouthpiece. The logic of the article is faulty regardless of the instrument, which is that lip thickness alone is a poor metric to use as a guide for mouthpiece selection.

[sungfw]

One other thing, how do you know the info in the article want gleaned from the direct observation of countless customers they've had? You don't need a DMA to make observations and then draw conclusions.

A research scientist was assigned to do a test to determine the influences of body shapes in distance jumping. So, the scientist decided to use frogs for this research.

He positioned four frogs side by side on a lab bench that was marked off in feet and inches. He said ”Jump froggie jump” and the frogs each jumped 7'.

The scientist wrote in his lab book: "Frogs with 4 legs jump 7'."

Then he cut off the left front leg of one frog, the right front leg of the second, the left back leg of the third, and the right back leg of the fourth, placed them side by side on the lab bench said “Jump, froggies jump!” and the frogs each jumped 5'.

The scientist wrote: "Frogs with 3 legs jump 5'."

He cut off the right front leg of the first frog, the right back leg of the second frog, the left front leg of the third frog, and the left back leg of the fourth frog, placed them on the bench and said, "Jump, froggies, jump!" and the frogs each jumped 4'.

The scientist: "Frogs with 2 legs jump 4'."

He cut off a 3rd leg from each of the frogs and repeated the process, and each of the frogs jumped 2'.

The scientist wrote: "Frogs with 1 leg jump 2'."

He cuts off the last leg of each of the frogs and says, “Jump, froggies, jump!”

The frogs didn't budge!

He raises his voice and says, “Jump, froggies, jump!”

No reaction.

He tries once more, shouting at the top of his voice, “JUMP, FROGGIES, JUMP!”

The frogs still just sat there.

The scientist wrote: "Frogs with no legs can't hear."

___________

All the observation in the world doesn't guarantee a valid conclusion … particularly if you're observing the wrong thing(s).

[norbie2018]

My point is that it doesn't take a degree to draw conclusions. You are correct in saying that those conclusions may be incorrect.

[Redthunder]

My point is that it doesn't take a degree to draw conclusions. You are correct in saying that those conclusions may be incorrect.

Nobody said you had to have one. The degree isn't what matters - it's the information, attitude, and experience that accompany the degree that matters, and that's the difference.

[norbie2018]

I think we might be taking past one another here. There are people with degrees in their said field that have the info, attitude, and experience you're talking about. There are also people with degrees that are incompetent. There are also those who gain the existence and know-how of their field through years of trial and error, no degrees involved. There are those who combine their hands-on experience with a degree.

I thought you were implying that a person had to have a degree to be an expert in choosing mouthpieces, and that's wrong in my opinion. Let the OP do his/her research on the subject and choose their path.

[TromboneConcerto]

I made this topic to hear many different opinions on the matter. Really interesting to see that there are different schools of thought on mouthpiece choice. I'm hoping to keep all of these thoughts in mind because I believe they all have at least some validity.