TromboneChat

I had question regarding the Ferguson 11 mouthpiece, it’s a great 11c sized piece based on a Minick design, with a rounded inner rim edge so it feels a little bigger on the face.

I love everything about the piece...it’s comfy, and has a great sound, although I often get a fuzz or slight hiss in my sound, particularly in the mid register. I have many similar sized pieces and don’t have the problem on any other.

Just wondering what that might put that down to? I notice it has quite a sharp shoulder leading into the throat (probably the sharpest edge of all my pieces), and I wondered if reaming out the top of the throat or smoothing this off would make any difference?

Anyone have any thoughts? I can minimise the fuzz, it’s not always there, and I’m not convinced an audience would even be able to hear it, but I’d love to get to the bottom of it!

"I love everything about the piece.."

Well not really.

Have you tried similarly sized mouthpieces (Bach 11C, Yamaha 46)? Do they have the hiss too?

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:39 pm "I love everything about the piece.."

Well not really.

...apart from the issue I’m describing, obviously.

Just not sure if it’s worth persisting with or I should discount it straight away

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:51 pm Have you tried similarly sized mouthpieces (Bach 11C, Yamaha 46)? Do they have the hiss too?

Yes! I’ve tried plenty of different brands of 11c and 7c, and I don’t get the hiss, that’s what makes me think there’s something about the design of this piece

Probably the rim.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:19 am Probably the rim.

Care to expand? Is that a common thing for rims with a rounder inner edge? That also makes the rim fairly thin I guess, but my embouchure is sealing well with firm corners so it’s not actually air escaping.

Well, the thing that is different about the piece and that is nice about it is the rim contour. But a different rim means your embouchure will interact differently with it. If this changes the angle of your air stream (because that's what might feel normal, and you might not even realize the angle is different), then that could put a lot of hiss or fuzz in your sound.

in my experience, rounded mouthpieces like the CL piece feel better completely centered on the face, which is actually not a very stable setup for your air. A 50/50 setup on your face makes it really easy for your air stream to switch back and forth between upstream and downstream, and that usually isn't good for your sound.

I am just throwing out ideas.

I had one of these, and although I didn't play it much, I remember having the same problem with it.

I remember finding a while ago a mouthpiece that had a 'shelf' in the backbore due to it not being drilled exactly on center. It had that 'fuzz' kind of sound. Basically, the manufacturing defect junked it.

I too have found that with the Ferguson mouthpiece.

It is probably actually the throat. Longer throats = more high overtones (generally speaking) = hiss.

In that size, some similar pieces would be the Marcinkiewicz Jiggs, Loper, or Ulyate models, and none of them have the same issue that I've noticed; in fact they all have lovely sounds, with the Ulyate feeling slightly more open than the other 2 and the Jiggs being the deepest of the 3. The Reeves/BrassArk 11c has one of the most beautiful sounds of any mouthpiece out there, in my opinion-- although the rim contour would be a bit different.

If you want to risk destroying a piece, take your Ferguson to a repair shop and see if someone can shorten the throat a bit for you. No guts, no glory.

You can also modify a Bach 11C throat, and the result is fabulous! That is what Watrous played on for most of his career. It's not only the size of the throat, (the Marc pieces you named all have the same size throat as the Watrous modification), but the shape of the taper in the throat. All the pieces you mentioned have a different shape throat taper. Scott Lasky and I had a discussion about this, and Scott was able to measure the differences in shape. I learned how to make the modification and have been playing a modified Bach 11C for 25 years. I also have copies of the Marc pieces you named, but none of them play forme as well as my modified Bach 11C.

Did you ever find a solution?
I'm having a similar issue. I play on a Yamaha 47 mouthpiece on my YSL-354. High range is okay, endurance is fantastic, but I do get an airy, thin (to me) tone. I have to be very careful on low notes to avoid cracking.
I returned to playing trombone about 2-1/2 years ago after playing euphonium exclusively for 25 years or so.

With so many options in that size, I would just move on the the next one. Not all designs work well with all people.

TraderPat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:38 pm ... High range is okay, endurance is fantastic, but I do get an airy, thin (to me) tone. I have to be very careful on low notes to avoid cracking.
...

All symptoms that the rim is too small for you.

Thank you! That give me an idea where to start looking. I also feel like I can't get enough air through it, but could it be a side effect of being a euphonium player?

TraderPat wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:22 am Thank you! That give me an idea where to start looking. I also feel like I can't get enough air through it, but could it be a side effect of being a euphonium player?

Ooo. That seems like a different problem, if your description is accurate. The vibrating lips meter the air at each pitch. There is very little variation in the amount of air possible, else the resonance won't happen. Maybe the smaller piece just feels unfamiliar.

Could be. I have a Bach 6.5 AL collecting dust somewhere; I will try that and perhaps look for something larger if it still sounds thin. Thanks!

ssking2b wrote: ↑Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:32 am You can also modify a Bach 11C throat, and the result is fabulous! That is what Watrous played on for most of his career. It's not only the size of the throat, (the Marc pieces you named all have the same size throat as the Watrous modification), but the shape of the taper in the throat. All the pieces you mentioned have a different shape throat taper. Scott Lasky and I had a discussion about this, and Scott was able to measure the differences in shape. I learned how to make the modification and have been playing a modified Bach 11C for 25 years. I also have copies of the Marc pieces you named, but none of them play forme as well as my modified Bach 11C.

All my 11C's when used with a 2B had the throat drilled out to 1/4'' and the back bore reamed. I never regretted it.

A sharper edge at the start of the throat could definitely cause an airy/fuzzy sound. Sackbut mouthpieces have no curvature at all into the throat, and it's very easy to inadvertently sound airy on them.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:36 pm A sharper edge at the start of the throat could definitely cause an airy/fuzzy sound. Sackbut mouthpieces have no curvature at all into the throat, and it's very easy to inadvertently sound airy on them.

I was just about to point that out. A sharp throat will tend to give a more airy sound. For sackbut mouthpieces it is actually not so much "easy to inadvertently sound airy", it's the way you want them to sound : the slightly airier tone goes together with having a much more interesting palette of articulations available and much more margin to color the sound. And when playing in a church, that airy tone no longer sounds airy, it sounds more transparent and clearer and it minimizes the problems of the reverb. It's really they only way you can have 8 or 12 trombones playing polychoral music in a church without sounding like a big swampy mess (and to play that music with a few singers and strings at all without overpowering them).

Of course that is not desirable on a modern mouthpiece for a modern trombone. Back to the original question, it might be the throat, but I'm not sure it's only that. I have a Ferguson 11 - it's been a while but I don't remember having that problem with it. Perhaps the throat makes it more prone to sound airy depending on the type of player/embouchure but I think Harrison is probably right about the rim having a role to play. I really like the Ferguson line, I used exclusively that for a while and the rim profile just really worked for me, but it's not for everyone.

baileyman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:27 am

TraderPat wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:22 am Thank you! That give me an idea where to start looking. I also feel like I can't get enough air through it, but could it be a side effect of being a euphonium player?

Ooo. That seems like a different problem, if your description is accurate. The vibrating lips meter the air at each pitch. There is very little variation in the amount of air possible, else the resonance won't happen. Maybe the smaller piece just feels unfamiliar.

I'm not sure about that; I have the same problem I have when I play a piece with a rim diameter that small.

It's really easy to test though; if you're anything like me, just having something with a larger rim provided an immediate improvement in every aspect of my playing.

I found an old Bach 6-1/2 AL and gave it a try; definite improvement in tone and no hiss. I'll need to work with it a bit to build up the range with it, but I like it so far. It seems a little more free blowing, as well.
Thanks again for the tips!