TromboneChat

I want a Schilke 51 that’s as deep as a 4G.

So a 51D, with a 51Rim.

How do i get that?

You can find a 51D if you look around. Maybe post a WTB in the Clasifieds. Popular Euph size.
Or you could get a Doug Eliot LT101G with an apropriate shank. Want it deeper still, try an H cup.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:33 am You can find a 51D if you look around.

The 51D has a different rim than the rest of the 51 family.

You could probably order one from Schilke (not sure what the designation would be). Might take a while, though. You might want to see what Doug Elliott can do for you first.

You might also try a Hammond 12XL.

The 51D is deeper than a 4G. A Hammond 12L is probably closer.

I have a couple of 51D, but the rim on the 51 is slightly larger.

I have lots and lots of Doug’s stuff, and love it, but wonder if maybe one of the Schilke Symph models could work?

The 51D small we rim doesn’t work for me so well, and it’s a bit too deep.

conn88Hagmann wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:21 am ...wonder if maybe one of the Schilke Symph models could work?

The 51D small we rim doesn’t work for me so well, and it’s a bit too deep.

I own and have played the Schilke 51 and it’s derivatives and the 51D was my main trombone mouthpiece for years—still is on euphonium. I also own the Symphony M5.1 and D5.1 models. The rims feel much like the 51. I bought both, pre-owned, about 3 months ago to transition from the 51. The M5.1 appears to be a tweaked 51—altered throat and/or backbore possibly. It isn’t the best fit for me. The D5.1 apparently has the same specs as the M5.1 with a deeper cup. The D5.1 seems,to me, to be a hybrid of the 51 and 51D—a 51 rim on a slightly shallower cup than the 51D, with altered throat and/or backbore. For me it is a better fit than the M5.1. It still gives me the sound qualities of the 51D, which I like, but without the diffuse sound and muddy articulations. Of course it depends on the player. But it sounds like you may have had similar issues with the 51D. So, the Symphony Series might be worth a try—especially the D5.1.

So, to summarize:
Schilke 51 + tweaked backbore/throat = Schilke Symphony M5.1

Schilke 51 rim + slightly shallower 51D cup + tweaked backbore/throat = Schilke Symphony D5.1

These are my opinions not confirmed with Schilke. I’ve heard a rumor that Karl Hammond developed the Symphony Series before leaving Schilke to start his own company. Maybe someone here could confirm this and some of my other assertions/findings.

These sometimes come up for sale, used, here and on the various Facebook market groups.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:07 am The 51D is deeper than a 4G. A Hammond 12L is probably closer.

The Hammond 11 is closer to a Bach 4G rim. If you want that rimsize and very deep you could try the Hammond 11L.

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:53 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:07 am The 51D is deeper than a 4G. A Hammond 12L is probably closer.

The Hammond 11 is closer to a Bach 4G rim. If you want that rimsize and very deep you could try the Hammond 11L.

/Tom

Yes, but the poster is looking for a 5 rim.

51 rim

Schilke 51 and Bach 5 are approximately the same size, with different shapes.

5G definitely feels smaller.

Rim is 25.5 and the 25.63 of the Schilke feels much larger.

The Elliot 101 is almost identical in feel for me .

5G is restrictive.

Any thoughts guys? Loving the 51 again, but would like a deeper versions

I used to love the Schilke 51D rim more than anything else, and way back when Osmun Music was located in Arlington, I had them cut the rim off a 51D and then cut up several other mouthpieces to create a variety of underparts for the 51D rim. It got to be expensive, but it worked.

So my advice: call around. Osmun likely still does this kind of work, but I'm sure there are other places too. Send them a Schilke 51 and a Bach 4G and ask them to create a screw rim combo out of it. If that combo doesn't work for you, send them a 51D to cut up and mate to your 51 rim. Rinse and repeat until you either find a combo that works or run out of money.

Most 51's are considerably bigger in the rim than their spec size.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:57 pm Most 51's are considerably bigger in the rim than their spec size.

I love your 101 rim. That’s been my go to for ages now. They are pretty close aren’t they?

My Schilke long shank 51 rim size diameter is the same as one of my newer Bach 4G and also same as my Doug Elliot XT102. I also have a small shank gold plated Bach Megatone 5 with the same rim diameter as the above, its not an exact science but I use a 2 pence coin to check the diameters of all the mouthpieces and can pick the ones that it fits in the same depth, that seems to work for me and is amazing the difference in so called specifications

So I’ve developed this a little now.

Having used the 2p test. (A british 2 pence coin). A good mate told me about it, and I recon he may be the midnight boner!

The 2p fits flush in my Schilke 51, and sits proud in a 5G and a Elliott Lt 101. It looks like the exact same fit in a Lt or Xt 102 rim.


So as Doug already stated the 51 must be bigger than the 25.63 / 1.01 inches it’s advertised at.


However. I’ve just stuck to the 51 (shirt shank) and it seems to be working ok!

51d is deeper than 4g

Elliott XT 102!!!


Awesome!

Sounds to me like the Schilke Symphony Series D5.1 or D5.1* may be exactly what you are looking for. This series was designed by Karl Hammond and based on existing Schilke designs. The D5.1* is a bit more open blowing, but not really deeper. I have a D5.2* and it feels deeper than a 51( which is deeper than the M5.1) and plays well in all registers.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:57 pm Most 51's are considerably bigger in the rim than their spec size.

Agreed, the 51 is closer to 25.8mm and as deep as a Bach 4G. As mentioned earlier, the Hammond 12L is indeed even a bit deeper in my estimation, like a 51D. The 51 is for principals needing the larger cup/volume or many second roles.

Three ways to get a 51 rim, with a 51D cup. 1st pay a lot of money for Schilke to custom make a mouthpiece like this. 2nd pay another custom maker to copy the 51D cup and the 51 rim. Or my recommendation is to buy an extra one of each a pay a custom mpc make to cut the rim off of the 51, thread it, and cut the rim off of the the 51D cup and thread the cup to take the 51 rim. If you like the Elliott 101 rim, it would be easier to just have a 51D cup modified to take the Elliott 101 rim!

Kinda, sorta, related comment:

Back in the day, Ralph Sauer used the Schilke 51 when he played his Conn 8H with the LA Philharmonic. When he went to a .525/.547 dual bore slide, it's been said that he moved to the Shilke 50 instead. I'm not sure what he uses these days, but one thing is for sure: it ain't a Shilke.

It's a gold plated piece, that looks like some kind of Marcinkiewicz piece. For curiosity sake, does anyone know what he's using? https://www.summitrecords.com/artist/ralph-sauer/

There was a period after he downsized when he had a 50 rim on a 51 cup/shank. Or maybe the other way around.

I'm not sure what he uses these days, but one thing is for sure: it ain't a Schilke.

It is, in fact, a Schilke. It's a 51 rim on a 50 underpart that has been skeletonized.

Sounds, then, like a 51C4 without the "4", to me.

Hammond’s 12M, a 51-sized rim, med depth, small shank, skeletonized outer might be similar?

If you like stainless steel, worth trying Giddings & Webster (now Giddings) mouthpieces:
Per specifications:
* Boreas: 25.60mm cup I.D.; 28.32mm cup depth; 7.19mm throat (deep cup)
* NB-101: 25.65mm cup I.D.; 25.53mm cup depth; 7.01mm throat (probably too shallow)
* GW-101: 25.65mm cup I.D.: 29.97mm cup depth: 7.01mm throat (very deep)
* Kadja: 25.75mm cup I.D.: 31.62mm cup depth: 7.40mm throat (very deep)
Compare to:
* Schilke 51: 25.63mm cup I.D.; "Med Deep" cup; 7.04mm throat
* Schilke 51D: 25.63mm cup I.D.; "Deep" cup; 7.04mm throat

(Remember, all specification dimensions are approximate and hard to compare between manufacturers.)

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:28 am Hammond’s 12M, a 51-sized rim, med depth, small shank, skeletonized outer might be similar?

Yes, the 12M cup is similar to the 51C4 or 50, both pretty shallow, but Karl has put a .265 bore on it (vs. a standard .277 for the 51 and 51C4) and attached a turbo-charged (my words) open backbore to it in order to tame the edge of a smaller V-shaped cup, and bit narrower bore. The M's were a surprise to me, I own a 11M. It plays like an old Schilke 52...the era I grew up in! Good sound, relatively speaking...and very responsive, not just for Jazz in application. A Bolero type mouthpiece, but that is just my opinion of one. Not all mouthpieces fit for all people, via Chris Stearn's wise adage.

Skeletonized? That's why it appears as a V-shaped mouthpiece? Grasshopper's next question: who does that kind of work to an existing mouthpiece, and why?

Schilke custom I expect. Hammond. Marcinkiewicz come that way.

FEWeathers wrote: ↑Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:07 pm Skeletonized? That's why it appears as a V-shaped mouthpiece? Grasshopper's next question: who does that kind of work to an existing mouthpiece, and why?

Many mouthpiece makers, like Hammond, Greg Black or Schilke will do it. Schilke will only do alterations or custom work on Schilke mouthpieces now, but the others will work on any mouthpiece.

Some players like less outside mass, it changes the response and feedback to the player. Sauer has played on a 51 for many years, it’s essentially his signature mouthpiece, and Schilke used to describe it as such, but now that he’s retired from his orchestra gig, he’s probably just trying to make his playing life a little easier.

Gotcha. Very interesting!

I have found the same exact results as Midnightboner. The mouthpiece that I use 90% of the time is a 51 Long Shank.
Interesting subject.

Not to get petty, but it't Large Shank, not Long Shank.
I've been seeing a lot of Music Dealers using the terms Long Shank now, it must be contagious.

jph wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:24 pm Not to get petty, but it't Large Shank, not Long Shank.
I've been seeing a lot of Music Dealers using the terms Long Shank now, it must be contagious.

Schilke made long shank mouthpieces in large shank that fit either Morse or Remington tapers. They are seen as more desirable to some than the modern short shank Morse-only models.

I stand corrected! New too me, although I am familiar with the Remington taper. Thanks!
Feel a bit like Gilda Radner's "Emily Litella" SNL character: "What's this I hear about long shanks! That's outrageous...
Never Mind.."