TromboneChat

Whenever I play a bit in the upper range I find that going back to low and pedal range can be a bit of a struggle and the sound diminishes quite a bit. I'd like to work on improving this issue. Any suggestions?
Thanks!

You are probably using a different embouchure set for the high range and the low range.

You need to work on eliminating the shift.

Try playing from low to high using the same mouthpiece position. Same for high to low. If ou know where the "break" is you can try crossing it from both directions working on using the same embouchure for both high and low.

Not everyone can play shiftless. I can't. But, I shift by sliding my lips on my teeth, not sliding the mouthpiece. Got that pro tip from Doug Elliot. (Amongst many others.) I don't think this is necessarily universal for all embouchure types, though.

Also important is returning to the same horn angle in a particular register. If you normally play at a certain angle low and change a bit to go high and don't change back again down low, stuff won't work as well. This is related to embouchure shifting, but isn't exactly the same.

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:35 pm ... I shift by sliding my lips on my teeth, not sliding the mouthpiece. Got that pro tip from Doug Elliot. (Amongst many others.) I don't think this is necessarily universal for all embouchure types, though.

Sorry, could you explain that a bit more?

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:58 pm

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:35 pm ... I shift by sliding my lips on my teeth, not sliding the mouthpiece. Got that pro tip from Doug Elliot. (Amongst many others.) I don't think this is necessarily universal for all embouchure types, though.

Sorry, could you explain that a bit more?

I'm not really the right guy to talk about all the variations in motions across all different embouchure types, alas. I try to know my limitations.

No worries! I've just never heard of that concept before and I'm curious to hear more about it!

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:03 am No worries! I've just never heard of that concept before and I'm curious to hear more about it!

David Wilken is an expert on how different embouchure work and made this handy introductory video several years ago (part 1 of 6 linked here):

Andrew thanks you so much for those videos!!! I found the spot you were referencing in particular!!!

I've had this described to me before but never in so much detail!!! I've always understood this as you should try your best not too shift but movement does occur. I never literally understood what was happening though!

I'll make sure to watch this whole series!

If you want specific personalized help with that stuff, that's what I do in my lessons. I teach about the mechanics of playing to help players of all the different embouchures types. My mouthpiece business grew out of that.

Sam Burtis has numerous exercises designed to enable one to navigate the basic problem of starting in one place, going away, and then getting back. He calls it "connection".

Incidentally, it's great to do things at slow speed, even super slow, to navigate the movement necessary to connect things. But I have found that such slow speeds can allow lots of chop movement in the solution. Playing the same thing 2x, 4x, 8x as fast forces the chops into a low movement solution.

baileyman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:23 am But I have found that such slow speeds can allow lots of chop movement in the solution.

I was a good player who had this problem. I had several different settings for the horn and a significant amount of motion and shifting on the horn. I could make things work just fine for slow and moderate passages. But, fast passages were a problem for me, especially when they moved across one of my settings.

Some lesson time with Doug helped me understand the basics of what I should be doing. I find things much easier to play these days. And my chops are much more stable and reliable.

--Andy in OKC

Get a lesson with Doug!!!! Even just one lesson can give you enough knowledge to totally transform your playing if you take his suggestions seriously.

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:35 pm Not everyone can play shiftless. I can't. But, I shift by sliding my lips on my teeth, not sliding the mouthpiece. Got that pro tip from Doug Elliot. (Amongst many others.) I don't think this is necessarily universal for all embouchure types, though.

Also important is returning to the same horn angle in a particular register. If you normally play at a certain angle low and change a bit to go high and don't change back again down low, stuff won't work as well. This is related to embouchure shifting, but isn't exactly the same.

An exercise that I do to help facilitate in getting the correct angle and aperture setting is starting on f or Bb in the staff, I move chromatically in both directions from the starting pitch alternating going lower then higher; F-F#-E-G-Eb etc. trying to make my best possible sound on each pitch. I may have to play several whole notes in a row until I get the note exactly how I hear it. It is a bit tedious, however it really helps in learning the optimum setting for each note.

GBP wrote: ↑Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:26 pm
An exercise that I do to help facilitate in getting the correct angle and aperture setting is starting on f or Bb in the staff, I move chromatically in both directions from the starting pitch alternating going lower then higher; F-F#-E-G-Eb etc. trying to make my best possible sound on each pitch.

For me that wouldn't work, because those notes are in my low range. I might try to set correctly but likely I wouldn't get it.

I start on the F above middle C and make that the center of my setting, and move both directions from there. That was based on advice from Doug. Let me add my recommendation to get a lesson; his approach really does work.

basstrombone426 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:28 pm Whenever I play a bit in the upper range I find that going back to low and pedal range can be a bit of a struggle and the sound diminishes quite a bit. I'd like to work on improving this issue. Any suggestions?
Thanks!

You ask the question and the 'gotta problem' police come out in force.

Let me offer a different reaction....

This is a normal effect of prolonged muscle contraction. Everybody finds it harder to play at their best in the low register after a a long mid to high passage. Don't worry and keep working at flexibility. You aim to get to a place where the only person that knows it is harder is you.

Chris

I'm just starting to realize shifting is what I've been doing for a while now when I go from low to high register. Now I have to focus on not moving my mouthpiece up when I go high.

David Wilken is an expert on how different embouchure work and made this handy introductory video several years ago (part 1 of 6 linked here):

Thank you for the plug, Andrew. While I'm at it, I want to credit Doug Elliott for being so generous with his time teaching me about brass embouchures and also credit Doug's teacher, Donald Reinhardt.

Not everyone can play shiftless. I can't. But, I shift by sliding my lips on my teeth, not sliding the mouthpiece. Got that pro tip from Doug Elliot. (Amongst many others.) I don't think this is necessarily universal for all embouchure types, though.

Some players do have a very minimal "embouchure motion" (this is the term I like best for this phenomenon, which I got from Doug Elliott), but I have yet to find a player that doesn't use an embouchure motion. Most are unaware that they are doing it. Some folks do too much, particularly in an extreme range, which may be one of the reasons why you're having trouble descending from the upper register, basstrombone426. It may be that you're too far along in your ascending direction or trying to go too far in your descending direction. It's not just a matter of muscle contraction/relaxation, although what Chris mentioned above is one piece to the overall puzzle.

I would suggest, however, that the way that Doug and I approach working with a player's embouchure should help minimize difficulty descending after staying in the upper register. The difficulty is that it requires seeing what you're already doing and diagnosing how that's different from a more efficient way. See if you can catch a lesson with Doug and you'll see what I mean.


Good luck!

Dave

Everybody has mechanical efficiency issues that can be better, but Chris's post points out an important point that it's always hard to go from extended high playing into the low range.

I'm just starting to realize shifting is what I've been doing for a while now when I go from low to high register. Now I have to focus on not moving my mouthpiece up when I go high.

Something to consider is that it might be better to put your mouthpiece where you play high and learn to play that way in your lower register. Hard to say for sure if that's correct without watching you play.

Dave

Wilktone wrote: ↑Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:11 am

David Wilken is an expert on how different embouchure work and made this handy introductory video several years ago (part 1 of 6 linked here):

Thank you for the plug, Andrew. While I'm at it, I want to credit Doug Elliott for being so generous with his time teaching me about brass embouchures and also credit Doug's teacher, Donald Reinhardt.

You're welcome! If I were to get to Asheville, I'd try to drop by and take a lesson, but alas, that's not in my foreseeable future right now.

Wilktone wrote: ↑Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:52 am

I'm just starting to realize shifting is what I've been doing for a while now when I go from low to high register. Now I have to focus on not moving my mouthpiece up when I go high.

Something to consider is that it might be better to put your mouthpiece where you play high and learn to play that way in your lower register. Hard to say for sure if that's correct without watching you play.

Dave

I don't know if this would help at all, but I'm a downstream player that plays slightly off center and my lips move up when ascending. (At least after watching the video and comparing the different types of embouchure motion to my own).

I should make it clear that Doug is part of the 'solution police' , but that is fairly obvious . Think how nice it would be to get a Skype lesson from Doug and find out that everything is efficient and you just need to practise..... it can happen...

Chris

Wilktone wrote: ↑Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:52 am Something to consider is that it might be better to put your mouthpiece where you play high and learn to play that way in your lower register. Hard to say for sure if that's correct without watching you play.

Dave

Yes, that's what I did when I changed my embouchure at seventeen in the year 1980. I had a terrible smile embouchure and had hit the wall. I could not play higher than a raspy . When I got the problem explained to me I changed over night and next I noticed I could hit the high c. It took about half a year to be able to play anything musical after that and then 1982 was accepted as a student at the Royal Academy of Music. The same year I was also accepted to do my military service in the Army Music Band. It was hard work to do that change from a smile embouchure to a puckered embouchure. I think the only way for me to succeed was to forget about what was past and start somewhere I had never been before. I had never played that high c before. When I got it I got hope because I knew I was on to something. The complete change was necessary if I wanted to be a better player..

/Tom

What about a frown embouchure? Or is that what you mean. I tend to frown when I go to b flat 4 and higher.

It's good to use the muscles below your corners, and that's what makes the frown. But each individual's facial muscles are knitted together a little differently in that area, so it doesn't necessarily look like a frown.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:57 pm It's good to use the muscles below your corners, and that's what makes the frown. But each individual's facial muscles are knitted together a little differently in that area, so it doesn't necessarily look like a frown.

So is it something not to worry about if I frown when playing higher? I don't know if I should try and keep my corners in sort of the same place or not.

My rule is to firm the muscles below your corners, whether that produces a frown or not. The frown is not important, but using those muscles is.

Of course, if you "worry about it" that may cause you to frown...

Maybe I'm worrying too much. Anyway, thanks for the input!

Is it just me, or is there an unusually high number of bass trombone players in this thread?

Bassbonechandler wrote: ↑Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:22 pm What about a frown embouchure? Or is that what you mean. I tend to frown when I go to b flat 4 and higher.

Frank Rosolino frowned pretty well up there.

blast wrote: ↑Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:56 am

basstrombone426 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:28 pm Whenever I play a bit in the upper range I find that going back to low and pedal range can be a bit of a struggle and the sound diminishes quite a bit. I'd like to work on improving this issue. Any suggestions?
Thanks!

You ask the question and the 'gotta problem' police come out in force.

Let me offer a different reaction....

This is a normal effect of prolonged muscle contraction. Everybody finds it harder to play at their best in the low register after a a long mid to high passage. Don't worry and keep working at flexibility. You aim to get to a place where the only person that knows it is harder is you.

Chris

Thanks for this. I was worrying about the same thing. But I had noticed that I have been improving slowly but surely. When TTF was active, I posted about playing "Adventures on Earth" by John Williams - bass part. I was trying to figure how to make that jump from the high A above the staff to the high E down to the low C below the staff. It was impossible at first but with time and practice began to improve.

So, my take from all this is... keep at it!