TromboneChat

Hi all,

I've been playing on a King 605 tenor as my jazz horn for about a year now, with a bach 7C, but I'm struggling to get some of the cleaner tones. This horn is absolutely tiny, .491 bore and about a 7 inch bell. Classically I'm a bass trombonist, so I'm very used to playing on rather large equipment. If anyone had recommendations on medium bore horns they like, I'd love to hear them.

Maybe a Bach 16 or 36?
Olds Recording or Special are small bore, 0.500, but still play big.
Maybe try a larger mouthpiece?

idk, I have a feeling others will chime in but a KIng 3b is about a .508 bore and a bach strad 36 is .525 either of those would be "medium" bore horns with the 3b being a little on the small side of medium... What part are you mainly playing???
What do you mean by cleaner tones... not sounding edgy and bright?

I'm also a bass bone player
I use a Bach 36 (.525) as my standard tenor, Bach 12 (.500) as my jazz tenor.
The 12 plays bigger than the specs would imply!

Chances are the biggest improvement would come from a bigger mouthpiece. Even staying on the same small bore trombone.

Cookie0329 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 8:03 pm Hi all,

I've been playing on a King 605 tenor as my jazz horn for about a year now, with a bach 7C, but I'm struggling to get some of the cleaner tones. This horn is absolutely tiny, .491 bore and about a 7 inch bell. Classically I'm a bass trombonist, so I'm very used to playing on rather large equipment. If anyone had recommendations on medium bore horns they like, I'd love to hear them.

What does "cleaner tones" mean in this context? I do not think the problem has to do with the horn. It is probably a technical issue with your playing. If you are uncomfortable with small rims you could try a larger rim. If you are comfortable with the rim but need more body in the sound you could try a deeper cup, this will change your sound but if you haven't got the streangth to play that deeper cup the sound will also suffer as well as stamina.

/Tom

As a bass trombonist who had to migrate to smaller horns I found that you have to adjust your playing. A tenor, especially a small bore, requires less air and a lot more finesse than a bass trombone. I went to a relatively large small bore mouthpiece -- a Bach 4C. But that was only half the solution.

I fully trust Doug's recommendations, and would try a bigger mouthpiece first. But also, a .491 bore with a 7" bell is a really tiny horn, especially for someone that's mainly a bass bone player.

At the very least I would recommend something with an 8" bell and somewhere around a .500 or .508 bore. You could go with a .525, but I'm not sure that's going to give you the sound you're looking for. It might though.

But those horns I would look out for are

King 3b or 3b+
Conn 6h, 78h or 79h
Yamaha 891z (445 or 446 might be good if you can find it, although it's an intermediate horn)
Bach 16 (not 8" bell) or 36

There's definitely more, but that's my quick list.

I would try to find an older Conn 78H, the elusive red brass one. That would be an amazing one with an Elkhart bell. 50's- 60's vintage not earlier.

I play on an old Bach 16 with a light slide from the early eighties, and now I’m going to buy a Yamaha 897Z. From my experience, I can say that a large mouthpiece (at least for me) has never worked well with a smaller bore, as I occasionally still use my Bach 42AF for repertoire that requires a more powerful sound. In my opinion, the size of the mouthpiece should match the size of the trombone. As I said, that’s how it works for me. As a bass trombonist, I would recommend either a Bach 36, King 3B, or a Yamaha 891Z.

timbone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 9:56 pm I would try to find an older Conn 78H, the elusive red brass one. That would be an amazing one with an Elkhart bell. 50's- 60's vintage not earlier.

What's wrong with earlier than 1950s Conns?

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 10:04 pm Chances are the biggest improvement would come from a bigger mouthpiece. Even staying on the same small bore trombone.

CSO4ever wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 9:39 am From my experience, I can say that a large mouthpiece (at least for me) has never worked well with a smaller bore, as I occasionally still use my Bach 42AF for repertoire that requires a more powerful sound. In my opinion, the size of the mouthpiece should match the size of the trombone. As I said, that’s how it works for me.

A bigger rim size with a relatively shallow cup, without going to a "large mouthpiece," can tremendously help overall results and to clean up the splatty attacks that typically come with a small rim size. I'm assuming that's what the OP was referring to with "struggling to get some of the cleaner tones."

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:29 pm

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 10:04 pm Chances are the biggest improvement would come from a bigger mouthpiece. Even staying on the same small bore trombone.

CSO4ever wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 9:39 am From my experience, I can say that a large mouthpiece (at least for me) has never worked well with a smaller bore, as I occasionally still use my Bach 42AF for repertoire that requires a more powerful sound. In my opinion, the size of the mouthpiece should match the size of the trombone. As I said, that’s how it works for me.

A bigger rim size with a relatively shallow cup, without going to a "large mouthpiece," can tremendously help overall results and to clean up the splatty attacks that typically come with a small rim size. I'm assuming that's what the OP was referring to with "struggling to get some of the cleaner tones."

When Doug recommended a larger rim for me, this helped both my high range and articulation. I use the same rim size with different cups for alto and large bore and am very happy with how this works.

cb56 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 10:29 am

timbone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 9:56 pm I would try to find an older Conn 78H, the elusive red brass one. That would be an amazing one with an Elkhart bell. 50's- 60's vintage not earlier.

What's wrong with earlier than 1950s Conns?

It depends on the model. I do think the early 78's were different. I own three horns from 21-24 and they are monsters. And they are TIS and all red brass. Then there's the Burkle. Then the wheelhouse tuning of the 70 H from the 30's on. There are a lot of good ones. I'm really interested in the Vocabells but don't own one. There is a great publishing by Margaret downy banks on the history of Conn engraving - really interesting if you are a Conn fan. I sent Larry Minnick my copy as he was a big fan. I have 9 conns, nothing newer than 1970, so there's a lot of love for the older ones.

I'm down to one trombone, a 1929 78h red brass. I was just wondering if there was something I've missed about these horns. The only slightly negative thing I've found is I have to have the tuning slide all the way in to be in tune at 440 A.
BTW have you ever played a vocabell?
I inherited a silver one and bought a yellow brass one at a yard sale. Never really impressed with them.

Btw the engraving on my 1929 78h is as plain as can be. I've seen Conns with beautiful engraving.

Here's my 1929 78H

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:29 pm

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 10:04 pm Chances are the biggest improvement would come from a bigger mouthpiece. Even staying on the same small bore trombone.

CSO4ever wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 9:39 am From my experience, I can say that a large mouthpiece (at least for me) has never worked well with a smaller bore, as I occasionally still use my Bach 42AF for repertoire that requires a more powerful sound. In my opinion, the size of the mouthpiece should match the size of the trombone. As I said, that’s how it works for me.

A bigger rim size with a relatively shallow cup, without going to a "large mouthpiece," can tremendously help overall results and to clean up the splatty attacks that typically come with a small rim size. I'm assuming that's what the OP was referring to with "struggling to get some of the cleaner tones."

Doug knows what he’s talking about. While I have tried (somewhat successfully) to play small mouthpieces over the years, even ones smaller than a 12C rim size I always go back to wider rims. 5 size or wider. Currently on a 4C equivalent playing a .500 bore Yamaha. The cup is a little shallower than a C but the rim is about a 4 size. You can hear that that sounds like here, no issues getting a lead sound.

The Great Pumpkin Waltz for Euphoniums and Trombone.

Can I join in with 78H SPEC from circa '41 all in red brass (apart from slide crook)?

As for medium bore jazz horns, as much as I love my 78H, I wouldn’t automatically grab it for a big band. Until very recently I had a 3B+ which I thought was better suited to getting all varieties of articulations which to me are a key component of many big band charts. The 78H slide feels and plays heavier than King did. The mouthpiece and player probably makes more difference for articulations than the horn though.

I‘m not much of a small combo player but would say the 78H has it for smokiness and the 3B+ wins for dexterity.

After selling all my Conn stuff having played mainly Conn for 20y, I was missing that Elkhart magic, hence why I bought the 78H despite already owning the 3B+. I kept the 78H out of the two for playing 1st trombone parts in lighter legit groups (symphony orchestra down to brass ensemble) whereas the 3B+ was just a bit too close between my 3B/F and large bore setup.

Both horns would be usable for jazz, it‘s more about the player than the horn.