How To Identify a Bach ”LT” Slide

[HBack]

Hello:

I am wondering about how to identify if a Bach slide is an “LT” (lightweight) or regular model. Are there always markings specifying LT? If not, how does one know when looking at a horn? Are the LTs always nickel silver colored? Could someone please post photos of the differences between those with over sleeves and those without?

I have a new (to me) Bach 16M, which supposedly has an LT slide, but I find no LT marking on the horn. I don’t have a regular weight slide to compare it to, and am just wondering. I have heard that ALL 16M horns come with the LT slide. Is this true? Perhaps this is why there is no LT designation on the horn?

Do other Bach Models that have LT slides have a marking that specifies it?

And…what are the differences playing-wise between an LT and a regular weight slide? What are the pros/cons of each?

Thank you!

[Dennis]

Does the slide have oversleeves? Is it made of nickel silver?

If the answers are, "No, and yes", then it's a factory lightweight slide.

If the answer to the first is, "Yes", then it's not a lightweight slide.

If the answers are "No, and no", then it's (probably) a lightweight slide but it's a custom job.

I say "probably", because I test-played a 50B3 whose slide was rebuilt with heavy outer tubes. It didn't have oversleeves as I recall, but it didn't need them to be very slide-heavy.

[ithinknot]

It's never marked, because it's obvious once you know what to look for.

LT has nickel silver outer tubes with no oversleeves: https://thebrass-exchange.com/content/b ... m-bore-525
Standard weight has yellow brass outer tubes with nickel silver oversleeves: https://thebrass-exchange.com/content/b ... ntage-1990

Nickel silver is not inherently "lightweight" - in fact, its density is marginally higher than yellow brass - but in modern Bach terms, all nickel slides are sleeveless/LT and all standard weight slides have yellow brass outers.

There are rare exceptions for custom work, and in the New York era (20s-50s) lightweight slides with gold brass or yellow brass outer tubes were not unusual, but from the 60s onwards there are essentially only two normal options: sleeveless nickel silver or sleeved yellow brass.

All 16Ms are LT, .509 bore. There are standard weight 16s, but those are .495-509 dual bore slides.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

The flanges that attach the brace to the outer slide are different as well. The LT slides have smaller oval-shaped flanges that partially wrap around the nickel outer slide tubes. The standard weight slides have larger diamond-shaped flanges that partially wrap around the nickel sleeves that are on the top end of the brass outer slide tubes. Both types of flanges are made of nickel.

It sounds complicated. However, it all makes sense if you study the different models that Bach has produced for many decades.

[tbdana]

Okay.

If your slide is factory stamped 16M, you have an LT slide. All 16Ms are LT. They all have a nickel-silver outer slide. None of them are marked LT. And if you got one that's old the bell will only have 16 on it, and not 16M, which I think they changed in the 1990s.

For me, the main benefit of an LT slide is that it's just easier to move, and because it's lighter it moves smoother and faster, without any jarring movements that can interfere with playing that is a risk on heavier slides. I can't think of a single downside to them.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Dana,

Most likely, your slide is outstanding because you play on it constantly. Thus, the chrome plating on the inner slide is continuously polishing the raw nickel on the inside of your outer slide. Theoretically, your slide will stay awesome or possibly improve as long as you keep using it and you regularly clean/swab it.

Some nickel slides, even if well aligned, will get oxidation on the inside of the outer tubes if they sit around unused for a while. Since the nickel is harder than brass, it can sometimes take the LT slides longer to self-polish that oxidation off the inside of the outer tubes. This is why some players complain that the "scratchiness" of nickel slides sticks around a little longer than brass outer slides.

For me, the Bach LT slides do not work as well as the standard slides. I tend to play bright, blow hard and tongue hard. When I play on LT slides, my sound can easily get edgy and articulations a bit overzealous. I can make the LT slides work, but I find that I must focus too much on suppressing my natural instincts. Thus, the standard weight Bach slides work much better for me. They allow me concentrate on being expressive without worrying about cracking notes or getting edgy.

The standard weight slides, if aligned correctly, do not having any problems with getting stuck or require extra effort to move. I played a three-hour rehearsal with my Bach 42 standard weight slide this afternoon. Never sprayed water on it one time during the entire rehearsal. It was absolutely flawless and effortless to move. Granted, it is a slide that I personally rebuilt and aligned to be perfectly parallel within .001 inch. Thus, I expect it to behave that way!

[Dennis]

Okay.

If your slide is factory stamped 16M, you have an LT slide. All 16Ms are LT. They all have a nickel-silver outer slide. None of them are marked LT. And if you got one that's old the bell will only have 16 on it, and not 16M, which I think they changed in the 1990s.

With the caveat that it has a LT slide if the slide that is on it was original to the horn. In my experience Bach players aren't fanatics about swapping slides around, but they aren't immune to it, either.

[baileyman]

I have a MV 9 factory LT slide in that nice golden red 50s brass they used, especially for bells. It has the rounded ferrules. I can recall pics of NY slides also in LT and not marked. Many slides have been converted to LT, often with the angular ferrules and a bit of overtube ghosting. John Sandhagan says that the ghosting may represent an internal narrowing of the outer that he can reem out.

Light slides feel great, but so does a smooth equivalent with overtubes. It would be fun to be able to play accurately fast enough so that changing directions was actually helped by lighter weight. The major momentum problem is in the motivating flesh.

[tbonesullivan]

Okay.

If your slide is factory stamped 16M, you have an LT slide. All 16Ms are LT. They all have a nickel-silver outer slide. None of them are marked LT. And if you got one that's old the bell will only have 16 on it, and not 16M, which I think they changed in the 1990s.

For me, the main benefit of an LT slide is that it's just easier to move, and because it's lighter it moves smoother and faster, without any jarring movements that can interfere with playing that is a risk on heavier slides. I can't think of a single downside to them.

Bach's "official" model designations have always been a little strange with regards to what actually gets marked on the horn. Like, if you have a "G" gold brass bell, that usually gets stamped on the bell, or at least it used to be. However I don't think I've ever seen a Bach with an "LT" on the slide itself. Current production LT16M horns have the 16M on the bell and the Model / 16 / M marking on the cork barrel under the serial number.

I've got a 36B with an LT slide. My 39 Alto however has a nickel silver outer side, but it also has oversleeves. I have seen several other 39 altos with similar slides, and don't know if they actually made any without oversleeves.

[BGuttman]

I have an LT36(CG) from 1991 that has LT on the slide. Nickel silver tubes, brass crook, no oversleeves. Note that the inner slide (where the serial number is located) is identical for LT or conventional slides. Only the outer slides are different.

[tbdana]

Dana,

For me, the Bach LT slides do not work as well as the standard slides. I tend to play bright, blow hard and tongue hard. When I play on LT slides, my sound can easily get edgy and articulations a bit overzealous. I can make the LT slides work, but I find that I must focus too much on suppressing my natural instincts. Thus, the standard weight Bach slides work much better for me. They allow me concentrate on being expressive without worrying about cracking notes or getting edgy.

Yeah, we have entirely different approaches to playing, so our experiences are naturally different. I tend to play pretty tightly controlled, never overzealous, and I tend not to overblow the horn. For me, the ability to change direction on the slide or move it very quickly is an important aspect, and a reason I like the LT slides. My "flash" comes not from blowing and tonguing hard, but from facility and range, and those require pretty tight control of the horn. For that kind of playing, the LT slides are fantastic IMHO. But I completely get what you're saying, and can see why you have a different perspective on these slides. I've just never experienced it from that perspective, so my comment was limited to my own playing style.

[GabrielRice]

Simple answer: all factory Bach LT slides are nickel silver tubes with no oversleeves.

There might be some exceptions from way back in the Mt. Vernon or New York eras when Bach did more custom work.

It's never marked on the bell which slide the bell section came with.

The pros and cons vary depending on your playing style and musical needs. I learned to play bass trombone initially on a Bach 50BG3LT but right now play a yellow brass Bach bell and slide with Greenhoe valves. I find the Bach LT slides respond better in the high register and tend to clearer, more pointed articulations, and I usually like them in combination with gold brass bells. On the other hand, the standard brass slide with oversleeves sounds richer and give me easier center and more solidity in the low register. YMMV.

[HBack]

Thank you to everyone who offered insight and information to answer my question. I really appreciate it! As everyone suggested, I learned I DO have an LT slide that goes with my Bach 16M... Along with that, I also found that the slide that goes with my 36CO is also an LT model, which I hadn't realized.

Thanks again, for all of the help!