TromboneChat

Hello!
I played trombone for many years but just getting back into it to join a local concert band. I have a couple of options when looking for a new trombone.
1. Olds Radio City Friction Fit
2. Jupiter Student model

I want to buy the Olds because it looks awesome but I am worried that the friction fit concerns me.

What do you think I should do?
Are friction fit Trombones a hassle?

Thanks,
TromHanks

Friction fit trombones are a hassle if you either have a lot of mute inserts or a lot of handling. I'd never march with one.

I have a lovely friction fit Olds from 1925 and I play it in concert band, do turn-of-the-Century trombone solos on it, and occasionally played a Dixieland concert. Since it also has no slide lock, I have to be careful handling it.

On the whole, I might consider not choosing the friction fit trombone unless I had a good alternative.

Is the connection good and solid (no slippage)?

Concert band music usually doesn't require a lot of mute work, so the Radio City should be OK as long as you make sure the joint is tight when you put the horn together and do the mute handling with your right hand.

I assume no slide lock? You'll want to get into the habit of wrapping you pinky finger around the slide brace so it doesn't get away from you.

The Radio City model is very rare; if you do buy it, please be good to it.

Caveats: Unless it's a very special Radio City, it's a small bore horn, so it's going to tend to have a pretty bright tone. Also, the mouthpiece receiver is smaller than standard; some people do OK with a standard mouthpiece, some people don't.

I might be wrong, but I thought they hadn't made friction fit trombones for a very long time.

That implies the trombone might be very long old. And have other problems than the friction fit. I'd be a little wary myself.

The change happened in the 1930's

Friction fit was totally fine for about 500 years. We've had lock-nuts for less than 100 years. If you find the tenon tends to get loose on you, there are alternative left-hand grip styles that avoid it.

Friction fit isn't a problem, but if you're looking at very old instruments, consider that they used to have nickel plated inner slide tubes. Sometimes they're fine, but can be less smooth in operation than modern chrome plated tubes.

These horns are generally too old to make many modern players happy. In fact, I wouldn't go for either of your two choices.

You can probably buy a much better horn from someone here. Have you checked the For Sale area?...

Hard pass on both horns. Avoid friction fit in general.

I have 2 friction fit bones, and both are perfectly fine. Just gotta pay extra attention to how you set the horns down and how you handle them. You kinda just literally jam the 2 sections together as best as you can and it usually holds and i can leave them on their stands just fine. I would never even consider taking them out of the house much less to anywhere that might involve brisk movements as that tends to be the bane of frictionfit.

the olds radio you are talkin about i believe is a straight horn which is a lot less of a worry than trigger bones. if you are really worried about it and concerned that it will fall apart or something like that, go with a different bone.

I agree the Olds might mot be the most ideal instrument for returning to playing in a modern setting, especially concert band, although its probably far from the worse option. And if the slide is in good condition, I know jazz players who love vintage horns and who could find it totally serviceable for some contexts. I mean, it's bigger than a King 2B, which still sees widespread use.

But just nothing of that has to do with friction fit.

mazman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:15 pm Avoid friction fit in general.

Of the 7 trombones I currently own, every single one is friction fit, including my two daily drivers that I take everywhere, one of which not only has a friction-fit joint between the slide and bell, but also anywhere between 3 and 5 more (depending on what set-up I play) within the bell section! It's simply not an issue.

I pass on both if it is a Concert band. There are better trombones. Personally if it was me I would go for a .525 horn. A used Bach 36, a Benge 175f or a Conn 79H. I have the luxury of owning a lot of old horns so I could choose any, but I would also make sure it has a valve because it makes things easier in a wind orchestra.

A friction fit Olds is to me something I would use at home for fun or maybe in a big band to play old charts. The sound on those old horns are usually dated. A bit "dark" or "muffled" as my friend says when I use one.

/Tom

I want to say that my experience with friction fit trombones has been great. Not one has given me a problem. Push and twist to set. If you look at this from a production standpoint, the union of bell and slide is critical to the overall playability. The taper has to be perfect. I think those engineers got it right and the introduction of the threaded receiver concept was a band aid on poor construction and sloppy fitting. I've seen plenty of trombones that have the screw system that do not stay together. Any others?

between those two I'd choose the old's.... but my only experience with Jupiter instruments comes from High school when they were a NEW brand... Our high school bought some convertible tubas for marching band that were Jupiter... they had a small bore and plastic valve guides... I had just moved into that town as a senior and wanted to march tuba just because I'd never played euphonium or tuba at that time... Needless to say I found an old beat up conn convertible tuba in the back room and marched that instead because it played a million times better even with the bell looking kinda stupid with all the removed dents... I guess it depends on.... tho maybe Jupiter instruments have improved... However, being a student quality instrument i kinda doubt it... I started playing trombone on a student bach trombone and when I sent the rental instrument to get fixed for a slide alignment they let me use a old conn director and the quality difference was huge... some student horns are worthless like student bach's, professional strads are a totally different story they resonate and play miles above what there student horns do...
I used to have a early 90's model bach 42 that played a lot better than most horns I've played... However I'd probably look for something more modern with a larger bore size.

No friction fit, they changed for a good reason.

I have an Olds Super that I like. It sounds great and its fun to play.

However
1. I can't use a trombone stand with it and keep the slide off the floor. (no slide lock and friction fit. I won't leave it with its slide resting on the floor.

2. I find it uncomfortable to use it with a mute. (plunger would be very difficult and adding or removing mutes is not easy.)

chouston3 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2024 9:02 pm I have an Olds Super that I like. It sounds great and its fun to play.

However
1. I can't use a trombone stand with it and keep the slide off the floor. (No slide lock and friction fit. I won't leave it with its slide resting on the floor.)

2. I find it uncomfortable to use it with a mute. (Plunger would be very difficult and adding or removing mutes is not easy.)

Yup. For these and other reasons (e.g., unintended rotation of slide vs bell), slide lock nuts and slide locks were great inventions - and have become universally adopted.
Would you purchase a modern trombone without these features?

I often wonder how difficult it would be to put a Rath style butterfly nut on the receiver…

atopper333 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2024 10:23 pm I often wonder how difficult it would be to put a Rath style butterfly nut on the receiver…

Some of the larger bore Olds horns came with clamp rings installed. The taper is still the primary means of securing the joint; the clamp is a supplement.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2024 10:18 pm Yup. For these and other reasons (e.g., unintended rotation of slide vs bell), slide lock nuts and slide locks were great inventions - and have become universally adopted.
Would you purchase a modern trombone without these features?

I would.

There are many players who actually remove their slide locks, so clearly that one is not a universally desired feature. I haven't used a slide lock in 7 years have yet to drop a slide. You're much more likely to drop a slide of you have a slide lock because you might think you've locked it when you haven't, whereas when you don't have one, you just know you have to always hold the slide.

And I've had unintended rotation of the bell happen way more often with my modern trombones than with any of my historical trombones. I don't think the bell on my sackbuts has ever rotated away except maybe once or twice when I first got my tenor and was afraid of putting too much tork when assembling it, and thus not putting enough. I can't say the same of my modern trombones. In particular, I had a Conn 6H for a few years where the bell would not stay in place because the nut was a bit worn. I agree with Tim. Either the lock nut was a solution for parts that were not being properly fitted, or its addition removed the requirement of the parts being fitted properly and created the very problem it's meant to solve. Most likely, a combination of both. Either way, you don't need a lock nut if the parts are properly fitted.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Oct 25, 2024 3:35 am And I've had unintended rotation of the bell happen way more often with my modern trombones than with any of my historical trombones. I don't think the bell on my sackbuts has ever rotated away except maybe once or twice when I first got my tenor and was afraid of putting too much tork when assembling it, and thus not putting enough. I can't say the same of my modern trombones. In particular, I had a Conn 6H for a few years where the bell would not stay in place because the nut was a bit worn. I agree with Tim. Either the lock nut was a solution for parts that were not being properly fitted, or its addition removed the requirement of the parts being fitted properly and created the very problem it's meant to solve. Most likely, a combination of both. Either way, you don't need a lock nut if the parts are properly fitted.

Could also be that most of the friction fit trombones we see today are quite tired with the majority being over 100 years old. Maybe they did not have as much issue with bell rotation in the 20s or 30s as the horns were relatively new and the tolerances were tighter as they did not have decades of use. Interesting to think that the change to lock nuts happened post Industrial Revolution which would lend further possibility to the fact that in order to keep an ‘acceptable’ amount of tolerance in tenon/receiver engagement, a lock nut would be employed as it would allow for less time to fit and more units to be produced…

Just a thought…but it does seem to make logical sense…

I have horns without a slide lock so I tend not to use it on any of them to maintain the habit. Not finding any problems. I also have a couple of friction fit horns and, again, they work fine, possibly better than the ones with a locking nut (as @LeTromboniste points out).

I suspect that the question for both these horns will be more about whether they fit stylstically with your band.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Oct 25, 2024 3:35 am

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2024 10:18 pm Yup. For these and other reasons (e.g., unintended rotation of slide vs bell), slide lock nuts and slide locks were great inventions - and have become universally adopted.
Would you purchase a modern trombone without these features?

I would.

There are many players who actually remove their slide locks, so clearly that one is not a universally desired feature. I haven't used a slide lock in 7 years have yet to drop a slide. You're much more likely to drop a slide of you have a slide lock because you might think you've locked it when you haven't, whereas when you don't have one, you just know you have to always hold the slide.

And I've had unintended rotation of the bell happen way more often with my modern trombones than with any of my historical trombones. I don't think the bell on my sackbuts has ever rotated away except maybe once or twice when I first got my tenor and was afraid of putting too much tork when assembling it, and thus not putting enough. I can't say the same of my modern trombones.

I am happy that my trombones have slide locks. I think it's only a small fraction of trombonists that feel differently (to the point where some disable or remove these locks).

Re friction fit:
Like Maximilien, I never had problems when I played sackbut. And I do not have problems with unintended bell rotation with small-bore tenor trombones. But I do face this issue with some large-bore tenors and bass trombone, whose bell sections are so heavy that (unless I firmly secure the lock nut) gravity induces them to rotate while I'm playing.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Oct 25, 2024 11:25 am
Like Maximilien, I never had problems when I played sackbut. And I do not have problems with unintended bell rotation with small-bore tenor trombones. But I do face this issue with some large-bore tenors and bass trombone, whose bell sections are so heavy that (unless I firmly secure the lock nut) gravity induces them to rotate while I'm playing.

Interesting! my modern trombones I tended to have to opposite problem. The ones that had the most slippage tended to be the straight (usually small-bore) horns rather than the heavier bigger horns. I suspect because the traditional modern grip with the thumb over the bell brace creates some torque that eventually loosens the nut. Even on my big German bass that has a pretty big bell and a wider bell section (therefore with a stronger lever effect), I haven't had any slippage despite no lock nut.

I do see how heavier horns and especially double-valve basses can benefit from the lock nut, but on smaller horns I really don't see why friction fit should be particularly avoided.