Most efficient large bore tenor

[kasperi]

I’ve been playing an Edwards Alessi model tenor for about five years. Coming from a jazz / small tenor background it’s taken me quite a while to get to grips with it. It still feels like too much work, especially in a trombone quartet setting I’m considering buying another tenor, one that is easier to play.

What large tenor brands/models are there that you might recommend? So far I’ve been considering the Getzen Ian Bousfield model (narrow slide), the Courtois New York model and the new Y-fort trombone brand. All seem to be lighter to play. And of course there’s the Conn 88. Any thoughts?

[Matt K]

You might want to consider a medium bore. Sometimes, the switch from your small mouthpiece to a large shank can cause a sensation that you don't get with a small receiver, which most medium bores have. Yamaha medium bores typically have an 8.5" bell, as do some of the Getzen. Any of the boutique makers can also give you an 8.5" bell with the slightly smaller slide. I have a Getzen 725 (8.5" bell, 525/547 slide) that I absolutely love for this type of thing. Sounds like a large bore, but is like twice as easy to play.

Honestly, there are lots of large bores that would also fit the bill, depending on what aspects about the T396 you dislike. FWIW, I liked both the Bousfield and the Courtouis you mentioned at ATW last year, but they do have fairly divergent design paradigms.

At the moment, the most popular (by extension of being widely regarded as easy to play) designs for large bore are essentially the Getzen 3047 or the Shires Q Thayer: A regular weight, wide tenor slide with a nickel crook, a thayer valve, and a medium weight, two piece bell with soldered bell bead and a "2"ish pipe.

If you have the budget and desire, you'd be hard pressed to beat actually going to one of the makers like M&W, Shires, or Edwards and just getting fitted. Especially if you're about to drop the money on a Bousfield, the price differential isn't that big. You're already in the Edwards ecosystem, so reaching out to them with what you want differently, Christian might have an idea on what to send you to without actually physically going thre.

[hyperbolica]

Edwards always have played a little big, even the 547s.

I really like my 88h with 525 slide. It feels and plays light. In fact, I sold my beloved 79h in favor of the 88h combo. This is what I use for quintet. In quartet I'm on bass. You can get the 88h with an SL2525 from the factory. Play before you buy, though.

88h is still nowhere near a jazz horn, but it will feel less like steering a dump truck.

On the other hand, you could get a Getzen 3508, which I have also used in quintet. Very light and versatile, and may have some familiar Edwards vibe about it. It has enough substance to be able handle a light legit situation.

[Burgerbob]

The Y-Fort is a good player, but the slots are pretty wide with the 2 leadpipe.

[ithinknot]

viewtopic.php?t=36898

Vaguely reminiscent of an 88HT, but with a more efficient leadpipe balanced by the wider crook... Light, easy, colorful, all very "quartet" or "pit .547"

[SamBTbrn]

What type of work do you require the large bore for?

Sometimes just going up to a medium bore with a larger mouthpiece is all you need for the same sound but with less effort for someone coming from a .500 jazz horn.

I would recommend trying out at Bach 36 with trigger, (your choice of bell material) if you know someone with one nearby.

It really worked for a colleague of mine in the orchestra, who was having the same issues when playing his Bach 42. After trying my spare 36 for a week he went out and bought one for him self and sold the 42. I can't hear a different, but he says it's a 1000% easier for him.

[LR109]

I'd have thought if you want an easier time coming from a small bore then rather than the most efficient necessarily you actually want something with a bit more resistance ie standard rotary valve, narrow slide, less open lead pipe etc.

[UATrombone]

...
And of course there’s the Conn 88. Any thoughts?

...
I have a Getzen 725 (8.5" bell, 525/547 slide) that I absolutely love for this type of thing. Sounds like a large bore, but is like twice as easy to play.
...

As OP mentioned Conn, and Matt K mentioned .525/.547 slide I may recommend 88H with SL2547.
I've got that combo about 10 years ago and was very impressed with it.
2 in 1... Full sound of large-bore and easiness (almost) of small-bore.
I regret that once I had to sell it.

[pbone3b]

As OP mentioned Conn, and Matt K mentioned .525/.547 slide I may recommend 88H with SL2547.
I've got that combo about 10 years ago and was very impressed with it.
2 in 1... Full sound of large-bore and easiness (almost) of small-bore.
I regret that once I had to sell it.

Do you use small or large shank MP?
I’m waiting for my SL2547 (back-ordered)

[Doug Elliott]

All good comments so far.
FWIW, I borrowed Matt's Getzen 725 (8.5" bell, 525/547 slide) for a while and played some gigs on it using a small shank mouthpiece. Very easy to play and sounds almost like a large bore. The same goes for a 36B or probably any of the .525 or .525/.547 bore horns mentioned above. You should use a slightly shallower cup than you probably would on a .547

[Matt K]

Doug designed an E4.5 that is fantastic that I use with it. I have a large shank leadpipe for one of my slides but at this point I really don't see the need to ever use it. If I really want a broader sound, I have a 547/562 slide I can use with a SYMG/G8, but I don't get that much extra breadth out of it.

[RJMason]

The 88H always felt like the easiest .547 for me to get around on when I had to play that sized horn. Great suggestions above. You might even be fine with a straight .547 and a 5G or 5Gs. Maybe worth trying the 88HY?

[Aznguyy]

All good comments so far.
FWIW, I borrowed Matt's Getzen 725 (8.5" bell, 525/547 slide) for a while and played some gigs on it using a small shank mouthpiece. Very easy to play and sounds almost like a large bore. The same goes for a 36B or probably any of the .525 or .525/.547 bore horns mentioned above. You should use a slightly shallower cup than you probably would on a .547

The Getzen 725 is a great trombone. I always recommend that one for my students plus they come up often pretty cheap at inexpensive prices. Another good medium bore with 8.5inch bell is a Yamaha 646.

[hyperbolica]

On the sl2525 I use a small shank DExtF4. I had a large shank leadpipe, but it made it feel too close to the large bore.

[dcslideman]

You might want to consider a medium bore. Sometimes, the switch from your small mouthpiece to a large shank can cause a sensation that you don't get with a small receiver, which most medium bores have. Yamaha medium bores typically have an 8.5" bell, as do some of the Getzen.

I'll concur with Matt's post. I no longer have a .547 bore because my Yamaha YSL-640(.525) can sound the same with the right mouthpiece.

[BGuttman]

A little sacrilegious here, but I found the King 4B to be a rather efficient (i.e. "blows easy") trombone. I've played in orchestra with one. You won't fit in with a Bach section, but if that's not an issue the King 4B could be an inexpensive and worthwhile choice.

[UATrombone]

Do you use small or large shank MP?
I’m waiting for my SL2547 (back-ordered)

Small shank, at first it was DE LT 103/E/.E4 and, a little later XT 103 E/E4 and G/G4 if I need a little "deeper" and
darker sound.
Large shank leadpipe with large shank mouthpiece was a little weird, for my taste...

[UATrombone]

A little sacrilegious here, but I found the King 4B to be a rather efficient (i.e. "blows easy") trombone. I've played in orchestra with one. You won't fit in with a Bach section, but if that's not an issue the King 4B could be an inexpensive and worthwhile choice.

+1.
4B Sonorous from 70's was first US made trombone which I had for couple months to participate in competition in 1993. My older colleague borrow it to me.
Was good for solo work, very easy in upper register (Wagenseil, Tomasi, Spisak without any problems).
I didn't need to blend with group.

[JMudge]

If you’re considering the 4147IB don’t rule out the 4047ET. Also, the Yamaha Xeno 882 (Compact wrap, yellow or gold bell) for another .547 option.

J

[johntarr]

I was fortunate enough to have acquired a M&W large bore last winter and really enjoy playing that instrument. It is easier in the high register with a very accessible low range (for me) than the 36B was. The build quality is excellent and the valve fantastic.

I had sworn off of large bore horns because they always seemed to be too much work for what I needed. The setup I have has made playing large bore “fun again.”

[greenbean]

For large-bore? Gotta be a Benge 190. Practically plays itself.

A King 3BF+ (.525), also.

[Posaunus]

For large-bore? Gotta be a Benge 190. Practically plays itself.

A King 3BF+ (.525), also.

Benge 190 - basically a large-bore King from 25+ years ago. Would you say the same about the similar (but more closed wrap) Benge 165F? Or the also-similar King 4B, as others have noted?

What is (was) it about King trombones that makes them so easy to play?

[Matt K]

There's a pretty big variability in the 4B/5B and other similar models that I've played. Some have actually been really, really good. Others have been.... less good. I tried four out at Dillon music about 10 years ago and I wasn't impressed by any of them, but a friend of mine has a 4B that I would totally let be my daily driver.

I think they have a pretty compact leadpipe, generally speaking. Or at least that's my perception. Which can feel like it doesn't need as much air. Think the rotor on at least some of those models is the same bore size as the lower inner slide too.

[tbdana]

My Lindberg 88H is an incredibly easy player. Love it. But in truth, it's not the horn, it's you. You're going to struggle with any .547 until you get used to that bore size. No horn is going to fix it. You just have to live with it long enough to be comfortable. And then, when you're comfortable, go find one that makes you want to proclaim its glory to everyone.

[pbone3b]

...go find one that makes you want to proclaim its glory to everyone.

That's great!

[Wilco]

Thein plays very easy and efficient

[Matt K]

My Lindberg 88H is an incredibly easy player. Love it. But in truth, it's not the horn, it's you. You're going to struggle with any .547 until you get used to that bore size. No horn is going to fix it. You just have to live with it long enough to be comfortable. And then, when you're comfortable, go find one that makes you want to proclaim its glory to everyone.

Maybe, but there are definitely combinations that are absolutely not a good fit for some people. There's no point in senselessly banging your head against a wall like I did trying to make a 5G w/ a YSL882O work for me by practicing until the plating fell off.

[UATrombone]

Hmm...
Nobody have asked OP what mouthpiece/mouthpieces he's using with "new" and "old" horn.
Maybe, his mouthpiece (size/depth) just not suitable for 396A?

[tbdana]

Maybe, but there are definitely combinations that are absolutely not a good fit for some people. There's no point in senselessly banging your head against a wall like I did trying to make a 5G w/ a YSL882O work for me by practicing until the plating fell off.

The OP said...

Coming from a jazz / small tenor background it’s taken me quite a while to get to grips with it [.547 bore]. It still feels like too much work, especially in a trombone quartet setting.

That's what I was responding to. He's coming from a small bore jazz horn, and the large bore feels like "too much work." That's a function of moving up in size, and is going to be the case with any .547 he picks up until he gets used to that bore size. Of course I absolutely agree with you that there are bad fits and good fits, but my point was you can't really tell which is which until you get used to the bore size.

Your post is absolutely correct, but isn't really what I was trying to say, which is that switching horns of the same bore size is not going to magically fix "coming to grips" with going up in bore size, and that's what it appears he's looking for.

[kasperi]

Thank you everyone for chipping in! I'll be looking into some of those options.

To clarify and answer a couple of questions, after five years of playing a large bore I've finally got to the point of producing a full tone and am now able to gig professionally in a classical setting, e.g. second bone in a symphony orchestra.

What I struggle with is solo pieces, such as the Martin Ballade, higher excerpts as well as playing first trombone in a quartet.

With the Edwards Alessi model I'm using a Griego-Alessi 7C, sometimes a 7D for second in the orchestra. Occasionally I'll play the 7B for solo or quartet stuff.

I actually do have a Bach 36 and have used it in our quartet (with a Bach 6 1/2 small shank mouthpiece). It works fine for first bone, but you don't really blend when playing second or third.

I know more practice is the real answer, but in the meantime I'm considering optimising my equipment to make it a tad easier. From what I've understood, Edwards, as great a company as it is, does stand at the heavier side of the spectrum. That's why I'm looking around for other models.

My experience with Shires is they are easier. I have a Shires small tenor and alto. I've tried a Conn 88 and that too was easier to play. And as I mentioned, the Courtois NY model felt nice a light. For some reason one doesn't hear Courtois mentioned in the US that often. I wonder if it's too European/French sounding for North American orchestras (the Met opera being an exception).

Recently I purchased the Yamaha Alain Trudel mouthpiece which is somewhere near a Bach 6 3/4 in terms of cup diameter but rather deep. Felt comfy but interestingly the Griego-Alessi 7C had a better upper register, probably due to its shallower cup. I use a Monette 6 (=Bach 6 1/2) for the small tenor so perhaps that size could be for me. I believe Van Rijen and Becquet play/ played a 6 1/2 sizes.

I'm still new to the large bore world and am trying to find my way. It's interesting how in general classical players seem to be more particular about their gear than jazz players. I appreciate the advice and thank you all for commenting!

[Matt K]

Maybe, but there are definitely combinations that are absolutely not a good fit for some people. There's no point in senselessly banging your head against a wall like I did trying to make a 5G w/ a YSL882O work for me by practicing until the plating fell off.

The OP said...

Coming from a jazz / small tenor background it’s taken me quite a while to get to grips with it [.547 bore]. It still feels like too much work, especially in a trombone quartet setting.

That's what I was responding to. He's coming from a small bore jazz horn, and the large bore feels like "too much work." That's a function of moving up in size, and is going to be the case with any .547 he picks up until he gets used to that bore size. Of course I absolutely agree with you that there are bad fits and good fits, but my point was you can't really tell which is which until you get used to the bore size.

Your post is absolutely correct, but isn't really what I was trying to say, which is that switching horns of the same bore size is not going to magically fix "coming to grips" with going up in bore size, and that's what it appears he's looking for.

I don't wholly disagree that someone has to get used to the size if you want to play it, but I don't think it's right to say that every .547 horn is going to have the same sensation one has when playing a trombone designed for one of the strongest players ever, primarily for their orchestral playing. If anything, it's more important if you aren't familiar with that size to get an instrument that can stylistically suit what you're playing and works well with a mouthpiece that is also physiologically aligned with you.

Which is why I initially suggested the medium bore. I think, generally, larger bore sizes have a tendency to be overrated for the types of playing many people do. I think it makes much more sense, especially for BQ playing, to get something smaller. It's a lot more stylistically appropriate for anything commercial or jazz, which is fairly common in the repertoire - especially trad jazz transcriptions, and generally blends better with a small brass group in my experience. Whether that's a "magic fix" or not, it's a lot less work.

I know more practice is the real answer, but in the meantime I'm considering optimising my equipment to make it a tad easier. From what I've understood, Edwards, as great a company as it is, does stand at the heavier side of the spectrum. That's why I'm looking around for other models.

My experience with Shires is they are easier. I have a Shires small tenor and alto. I've tried a Conn 88 and that too was easier to play. And as I mentioned, the Courtois NY model felt nice a light. For some reason one doesn't hear Courtois mentioned in the US that often. I wonder if it's too European/French sounding for North American orchestras (the Met opera being an exception).

I think five years is plenty enough time on a horn to know if it's a good fit. It's hard to make a generalization about any of the boutique makers. There's just too many options! Some Shires will definitely be harder to play, but some Shires will inevitably be easier for you to play. Given that you already have had a few years I think it would be a good use of time to try to make your way somewhere to try them if possible. Be it a fitting at one of the boutique locations or a festival/convention.

One thing I would point out is that you are using mouthpieces on the smaller side of the spectrum. (And shallow). It's not a bad thing, just something to be aware. You might find trying something bigger makes a lot of playing easier and, paradoxically, may make your endurance and flexibility easier too. You might not as well. If you think the 1.004" rim size and relatively shallow cups are working and want something that suits them, I would probably stick towards horns with more open leadpipes or at least slides that let you try different leadpipes. For that matter, just a regular Edwards slide with a wide, nickel crook and a size 3 leadpipe might make the T396 bell section sing.

[kasperi]

Thank you, Matt K, for again answering and offering advice. Going for a fitting at one of the companies is something I’d like to do, but of course it’s quite an investment to travel from Scandinavia… Visiting a European factory would be a bit cheaper, of course. Also I’m so inexperienced I wouldn’t know which company to pick. But visiting a trombone event such as ITF would give me a chance to try multiple brands.

I didn’t think the Griego-Alessi 7 series would be considered small, although the C and B cups admittedly are shallow. If a wider rim would help me with endurance, particularly in the upper register, that would be mind-boggling for me. I’ve always been a smaller mouthpiece player.

But all this is food for thought. I might reach out to Christan for help.

Thanks again!

[Doldom]

Yamaha YSL-823G
Very lightweight and very easy-blowing large bore.
I think it's easier to drive than Conn 88H (Greenhoe, or normalish 88H, or even the old Elkharts)
Although I think 823G is a bit lightweight to high-volume playing so I bought YSL-820G(which model, the 823G is based on) and am waiting it to arrive.

[Matt K]

I didn’t think the Griego-Alessi 7 series would be considered small, although the C and B cups admittedly are shallow. If a wider rim would help me with endurance, particularly in the upper register, that would be mind-boggling for me. I’ve always been a smaller mouthpiece player.

Yeah it surprised me too. I’d played 5G size for like, nearly 10 years until I went to Doug’s place to get fitted. Put me on a 102N and then shortly thereafter a 104N (1.02” and 1.04”, respectively) and I’ve been on that for now more than 10 years. For some of us, especially really high placement players (like Joe Alessi too, potentially relevant since you’re playing a horn originally designed for him), there literally no downside to playing something “big” and only upside… better endurance, better range (low AND high), better flexibility… I don’t know the % of players. Doug probably has a guess since he sees a lot of people. I’d bet it’s at least 20-30%.

With the “bigger” rim, I can now play pretty shallow cups and make them work well on instruments that traditionally would have taken a deeper cup without feeling like I’m fighting the horn. For large bore stuff, I seldom go deeper than an E cup, which is roughly a 6.5AL depth, which would have been unthinkable to me a long time ago. Would have been way too bright.

Anyway, knowing you’re in Europe slightly changes my suggestion. They are expensive but you’re probably not too big a distance from Thein. (Assuming you’re okay with a comparably cheap train ride and potentially up to a few days of travel). Or Rath in the UK. Both of those options are great. Believe the Courtouis factory is now in Germany too. Regardless, there are definitely a few places over on that side of the pond that have distributors for those brands and keep at least a few horns in stock. That would be a good compromise vs. flying out across the world for a fitting for sure!

[sf105]

Thomann offer a 30 day return policy

[Doug Elliott]

I know more practice is the real answer

Not necessarily.
Along the lines of what Matt posted above, you could be playing on a mouthpiece size that is entirely unsuitable for your chops. And all of what you have tried is around the same size.
So it may not be the horn at all. Or "more practice."

Do you use Skype?

[johntarr]

I had a Skype consultation with Doug and use his mouth pieces on all my horns. It was one of the most helpful things I’ve ever done for my playing.

[kasperi]

Thanks again for further replies.

Actually Thein, Courtois and Rath are all brands I'm interested in. Thought I hardly hear classical players mention Rath, mostly jazz bone players. Do they make good classical horns?

As for Thein and Courtois, I wouldn't want a be locked into a quintessential German or French style horn, but both companies do have a more American or international series. So I could probably find a versatile horn from either company.

[kasperi]

I know more practice is the real answer

Not necessarily.
Along the lines of what Matt posted above, you could be playing on a mouthpiece size that is entirely unsuitable for your chops. And all of what you have tried is around the same size.
So it may not be the horn at all. Or "more practice."

Do you use Skype?

Yes I do and I would be interested in a consultation session. My username is finglishman88. Please send me a message.

[sf105]

Actually Thein, Courtois and Rath are all brands I'm interested in. Thought I hardly hear classical players mention Rath, mostly jazz bone players. Do they make good classical horns?

They make the horns you configure. Rath has customers amongst UK and European orchestras (including our own @blast). I see some American players in his lists too, including John Rojak.

[Matt K]

Rath make great classical altos and tenors. I would absolutely consider them if I were in the market for a new one.

[kasperi]

Today I got a chance to try an Elkhart Conn 88 from the 60s which is for sale. It was a tad lighter to play, but not as effortless as I had hoped. Much more mellow sound compared to my yellow brass Edwards. Obviously it’s somewhat a matter of personal taste, but I would pick the Edwards for things like Mahler, Strauss and Bruckner. My question is what sort of rep or context would the Conn particularly shine in?

[pbone3b]

As OP mentioned Conn, and Matt K mentioned .525/.547 slide I may recommend 88H with SL2547.
I've got that combo about 10 years ago and was very impressed with it.
2 in 1... Full sound of large-bore and easiness (almost) of small-bore.
I regret that once I had to sell it.

Do you use small or large shank MP?
I’m waiting for my SL2547 (back-ordered)

Apologies for the self-centered tangent, but my SL2547 arrived this weekend, and I've really been enjoying it with my 8H (w/after-market trigger) and BrassArk Clark MP.

[flyingcow]

Between this:

Benge 165F

and getting away from this (thanks again, Doug):

a mouthpiece size that is entirely unsuitable for your chops.

with a whole lot of this:

practice

I'm finally starting to get efficient.

[FatherJohn]

I recently picked up the Ralph Sauer model from Shires. It has a 525 upper and 547 lower. I'm in my early 70's and lung capacity is going down. It sounds great, is easier to play, and takes less wind than my 547 Shires model.