My problem with Bach (same as everyone else's) and rolling die again

[Boba]

I had a bit of a blind love for the first few days with the horn. I thought it sounded great and felt great, but after a few days, I started to realize that at loud and high, it fights back with me, and at soft dynamics, it hesitates. I thought low range was great, but after a few days, I found it unresponsive. The sound is also pretty dead in general. Not to mention my previous post about its valve. There's only one thing I love about the horn and it's the high range is so easy- high Fs all day baby!

I've never had this issue with any other horn. Every other horn I tried I immediately knew what I liked and didn't like, but for some reason the more I play this, the more I hate it. Anyway, I think it's time to return this horn and give it another shot. And yes, I am kind of a gambling addict, but I am doing it financially responsibly with these Bachs.

[chouston3]

When I had a Bach, I was constantly changing mouthpieces to get it to behave. It was an incorrigible horn. I sold it to a guy who loves it and plays it all the time. I now play a horn that behaves itself.

[Arendsdale]

I’ve customized my 42 over the years (new valve, new gooseneck, custom bracing, added tone halo) and I absolutely love it. It was a good horn before, but now it’s exactly what I want. I’m assuming your previous post about the valve was negative haha

[Pezza]

I love my Bach 36K & Bach 12.
Loved my Bach 50, until I was in an accident & had to go smaller for medical reasons.
Never liked Bach 16 or 42!

[MrHCinDE]

I would have agreed with the OP for 20+ years based on the Bach 42s I tried when choosing my first large bore horn.

I had more or less the opposite experience to you when I picked up a cheap used straight LT42 locally, mainly out of curiosity. The more I played it, the more I liked it, so much so that I got a modular valve section built and sold off all my Conn stuff.

[Kbiggs]

First, make sure there’s nothing about the horn that affects the way it plays. Make sure the water key seals, the valve is aligned, no leaking joints, etc. Then get to work.

If the Bach-style horn suits you, then keep working on it. If everyone around you plays a Bach and you need one to fit in with the crowd, learn to play it. If a different style of horn (Conn, King, Shires, Edwards, Thein, etc.) suits you better, play that. If you have unlimited resources, keep trying them all. At some point, you’ll settle on a stable, but you might be broke.

Some horns are easier to play. Sometimes, we need to learn to play that particular horn. Who knows? Maybe this is the horn where you’ll learn to play a big, focused fortissimo and a centered pianissimo.

[LR109]

Just to flip this around slightly...

You sounded great and played great initially, then you realized your high range was suffering and your production in quiet dynamics wasn't on point. Probably to be expected swapping to a different instrument given you've spent X amount of hours practising on a different one. I'd try to look inwardly at least for a month to assess if/what is holding you back in those aspects before drawing conclusions on the instrument. All said with complete understanding that plenty of people "don't get on with Bach's", but don't forget it's just a piece of metal

[tbdana]

I love my Bachs. Man, there's just something about the sound, the way they feel in my hands, the way they seem to meld with my soul. I love 'em. Right now I have a 16MG and a Greenhoe Bach 50 that are like extensions of my body. I had a 36B back when people actually played those in orchestras. I've played a 12, a 16, and a 42, also. I'm a huge fan. There's just a valve I stay away from, otherwise they are great.

[dukesboneman]

For the Life of me, I don`t understand the "Problems" with Bach`s.
Some of the most amazing Instruments I`ve ever played are Bachs.
Yeah, they`ve made some duds, but so has every major manufacturer.
I`ve NEVER had a problem with projection in any ensemble as some have stated here.
At present I have an absolutely incredible Bach 12 that is my "daily Driver"
I`ve been to the FMEA conference here in Florida and the last ITA conference at Eastman and tried a bunch of
horns from many different companies. I loved the Marshall Gilkes Shires but not more than my 12
There has been such a push for Shires, Edwards, Rath , M&W et.....
that we see younger posters saying they need to upgrade from their 42B? really? It`s not an intermediate horn.
The Boutique companies make some incredible horns But they all have their Bach or Conn Style horns . Why is that?
Because Bach and Conn set the standard that is still there today.
Sorry for my rant, just tired of the Bach negativity

[Pezza]

I love my Bach's. Have a 12 & 36K. Previously had a 36B & 50BO. Played many others. For me the 36 is the best all round tenor, if I don't know what part (sometimes even style) I'm playing I take the 36.
Not a fan of the 16 or 42! Don't know why, they just don't work for me. Conn 88H is my preferred large bore.
Would love to get my hands on a 45 to try.

[Burgerbob]

I've owned 47 Bachs.

And I still own 5 of those. When they are good, there's not much better.

[Finetales]

For the Life of me, I don`t understand the "Problems" with Bach`s.
Some of the most amazing Instruments I`ve ever played are Bachs.
Yeah, they`ve made some duds, but so has every major manufacturer.

Nobody said that Bach is the only manufacturer to make bad horns. The "problem" is it isn't just "some" duds...there are a LOT of bad or mediocre Bachs out there, from every era. Finding a truly great Bach is finding a diamond in the rough - the special ones are the exception, not the norm.

Sure, there are bad Elkhart Conns, bad King 2Bs/3Bs, and bad Yamahas. But even the Elkharts (which vary a ton) seem to have a better batting average than Bachs. (I say this as someone who has owned 2 Elkhart Conns that were absolute dogs!)

Yes, the ceiling for a Bach is extremely high, and the best ones are truly special. But for every great Bach I have played, I've played 10 that were not so great. Finding the special ones is a treasure hunt that many people aren't willing to embark on.

[hornbuilder]

Why is that?
Because Bach and Conn set the standard that is still there today.

Yes, in regards to "sound". But you admit yourself, that not all of the factory horns are good (I firmly believe the majority of the issues leading to this outcome is poor assembly at the point of manufacture)

I (M&W) do not make bad horns. Because I build every single one with great care and precision. You don't have to play a dozen of my horns to find a good one. You don't have to rebuild my horns to make them great. They start out great. I make every instrument "for myself". Would "I personally" be happy to take this horn on the gig with me? If the answer is "no", it doesn't get sold. There have not been any examples in that category.

And before someone says "yeah, but they're so expensive" please, do some shopping around of comparable products.

Since my brand was brought into the discussion

[heldenbone]

Yes, the ceiling for a Bach is extremely high, and the best ones are truly special. But for every great Bach I have played, I've played 10 that were not so great. Finding the special ones is a treasure hunt that many people aren't willing to embark on.

Slightly different context, but I'll share it anyway... When I was in grad school Oh so many moons ago, no self-respecting trumpet major would be caught dead with anything but a *Bach* C trumpet. It was the oddest thing though; none of them could (apparently) be played as delivered from the manufacturer. They would soon be modified in some more or less extreme manner. Cryo bell treatment, re-round the bell bow (Bach was using frozen soapy water at the time), Bb tuning slide cut down, alternate Bach leadpipe (25A, 25H, 7C, 43C, 25S, and more) or a third-party leadpipe. Parts from Dave Monette, Pilczik, Ren Schilke, Cliff Blackburn, Jerry Callet, Dennis Najoom, Bob Malone, Melk, Larsen, sprouted like weeds, held on with black tape. Sometimes a new one would get installed, sometimes, just a different pipe and fresh tape. Heavy valve caps. A single heavy valve cap. A mouthpiece weight.

I eventually gave up on Bach and found a C by another maker that played very much to my liking. Bach still seems to be running their game though. Even Aidan's admiration for Bach instruments usually requires several rounds with a hacksaw and propane torch to find fulfillment.

[dukesboneman]

I played a gig a year before Covid with a Big band.
I was playing lead on my Bach Lt12G
2nd Played a Shires
3rd played a Rath and The Bass has a Beautiful M&W
I was a little jealous until the 3rd player asked why I would play something as cheap as a Bach? Really?

[Posaunus]

I played a gig a year before Covid with a Big band.
I was playing lead on my Bach Lt12G
2nd Played a Shires
3rd played a Rath and The Bass has a Beautiful M&W
I was a little jealous until the 3rd player asked why I would play something as cheap as a Bach? Really?

Talk about listening with your eyes!

[hornbuilder]

There are a LOT of people who do that!!

[NotSkilledHere]

it would probably put them into cardiac arrest to hear that a few forum members here have sworn by the Yam 354, which you can find quite good used examples of for $100, and won competitions on them, where their most of their competitors probably used far more expensive and blingy horns.

[tbdana]

it would probably put them into cardiac arrest to hear that a few forum members here have sworn by the Yam 354, which you can find quite good used examples of for $100, and won competitions on them, where their most of their competitors probably used far more expensive and blingy horns.

If you can play, you can play. If you can't, well, you blame the equipment.

[hornbuilder]

what he said!!

[CSO4ever]

I’ve been playing Bach trombones since high school, and I believe it will stay that way for the rest of my musical career. Currently, I play the LT42AFG model, where I replaced the nickel on the slide crook with brass. The slide is very fast, and with this change, I’ve also slightly darkened the sound, bringing it closer to the characteristics of a regular brass slide. This horn is a killer!
I like Bach trombones because of their full and distinctive tone, and the instruments offer a wide range of color that can blend into various ensembles. Every individual Bach trombone has its own subtle characteristics, which make each instrument truly unique. I also believe that nothing is given for free with Bach trombones. They quickly punish mistakes, but when you do everything right, they reward you generously. Over the years, I’ve played many excellent Bach trombones from different periods, each with its unique sound, naturally at Bach’s high standard. The only downside to Bach trombones (and, of course, other brands) is the poor quality of the lacquer, but due to the phenomenal sound, this doesn’t bother me at all. Luckily, I’m no longer an eighteen-year-old kid who puts everything on outward appearance.

[Digidog]

it would probably put them into cardiac arrest to hear that a few forum members here have sworn by the Yam 354, which you can find quite good used examples of for $100, and won competitions on them, where their most of their competitors probably used far more expensive and blingy horns.

I played a Yamaha 354 until my second year of musical college; I played the auditions on it, got admitted and played it in every concievable context (even classical music) my first year and a half.

The 354 is a great horn for what can be played on it, and I only changed when I found out how both sides of my range and sound, could develop from playing horns with different characteristics and traits.

If I had the need for it, I'd buy a new 354 sight unseen, or a used one in good condition, without thinking twice.

However: I think that Matt (@hornbuilder) is on to something here. It is more rational and wise to build horns one at a time with greater quality demands, and a more scroutinous production process throughout, than mass producing many with a part being deliberately, and calculated to be, substandard. Though the former would demand a higher price from the outset, the time and the process spent on sifting through a mass of unsuitable objects is also a loss that we all too easily overlook, and dismiss as insignificant - where it certainly is not.

I will also add that the more careful manufacturing process, also is a better management of resources, and therefore a much better environmental choice, than mass production where many finished products become waste or unwanted.

My saving-up project right now, is definitely a M&W f-attachment horn - either a 322 or a 336.

[TomInME]

I like the so-called "Bach sound" but it's been 40-50 years (or more?) since they updated the rotors on their basses. They're a "shareholder-value" company now, but sometimes you get a Wednesday Harley.