TromboneChat

I just recently Sold my shires that has a 9.5 inch bell…and I’m planning on buying a Bach with a 10 inch bell. Will there be a different in my playing or tone?

Yes

Are you sure it's a 10" bell - I thought Bach only made 9.5 and 10.5" bells. Others like Holden, Benge and Yamaha have 10" models.

JS

Bachs very, very rarely have 10 inch bells. I'd assume it's an L bell in 10.5".

It's a different horn, so any differences are going to be based more around that than an inch of bell.

I have a Bach 10.0” flare…. And have only seen one other in the flesh, both old. Most L flares are 10.5”

If it works with the whole package, great, but the 9.5” work better for most.

Cheers,
Andy

All other things being equal, the 10.5" (if that's what it is) is more open.

When I studied music i had a Bach 50 with 10.5 bell. I thought it was a bit woofy sound. But remember an other student with same bone sounded amazingly good. So could have been just me or that particular trombone was no good. Had a holton 181 with 10 bell. Better fit for me. I think Bach trombones are inconsistent so best to try before buying.

Leif

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 12:48 pmYes

TomInME wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 10:44 pm All other things being equal, the 10.5" (if that's what it is) is more open.

Not sure if that's correct, or at least not clear enough. I would expect that the larger bell flare size - not the throat which is probably same on the 9.5 and 10.5 inch bells - has zero or negligible effect on the openness/resistance of the blow. However it will certainly have some effect on the sound/what comes out of it.

Other people have commented this already. I would also say, generally larger bells are not "fashionable" anymore, and may lack a certain focus. However for a specific player and/or in a specific setting it may be the right choice.

What is overlooked in the 9 1/2" / 10 1/2" discussions are the variations - gold brass/yellow brass/red brass, H vs standard weight, if it's an older bell does it have a French bead? How is the bell connected to the valve section - compare the over-braced Bach 50B3O to the original B3. Has the bell section been assembled with attention to careful alignment or just out of the case from the factory.

I've played 9 1/2" bells that have no resonance, and 10 1/2" flares that produce a Conn-like clarity. Robb Stewart cut down numerous 10 1/2" flares to 9 1/2" and would ask what type of bell wire I wanted, so that's another variation.

I had a 10 1/2" heavy yellow bell for a while - very difficult to get any ring out of it..felt like Sisyphus trying to sustain. I have the first 10 1/2" gold brass flare Bach made - it has a French bead and is not as heavy as current bells. Bach made 10" bells in Mt. Vernon as shown on shop cards.

Every Bach is a custom Bach.

TomInME wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 10:44 pm All other things being equal, the 10.5" (if that's what it is) is more open.

Which translates into spread.

I don't have the actual specs, but am pretty certain the throat is not the same as the 9.5. It is more open. A bigger flare isn't needed for a more open throat, but in this case they go hand in hand.

With proper control and appropriate choices of mouthpiece and leadpipe, it get a bigger and somewhat darker sound. Otherwise, it's difficult to center and control (i.e.: spread).

Bach bass bells are spun in the same mandrel, regardless if they're 9.5 or 10.5 final diameter.

I stand corrected, although all the L bells I've tried played noticeably more open (and harder to center). Not sure why an extra half-inch around the edge would have that effect.

Has Bach always used the same mandrel for both? Why bother if the difference is purely cosmetic? The 10.5 bell requires cocking the slide sideways several degrees, which is an extra design hassle.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 12:49 pm It's a different horn, so any differences are going to be based more around that than an inch of bell.

What other differences? Neckpipe? Tuning slide?

TomInME wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 10:59 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 12:49 pm It's a different horn, so any differences are going to be based more around that than an inch of bell.

What other differences? Neckpipe? Tuning slide?

Well, OP is going from a Shires to a Bach: lots of differences!

Just a list of things off the top of my head:

* Bell is likely to be two-piece on Shires, 1 piece on Bach
* Tuning slide taper
* Tuning slide reversed (Shires) vs. Not Reversed (Bach)
* Taper in neckpipe
* Overall length of bell section
* If it's rotors, Bach50s have some undersized valve casing dimensions (a .593" ball will massively stick out when placed inside a casing)
* Amount of bracing between the Bach vs. Shires
* Length of slide (Bach is longer)
* Prooooobably leadpipe (Bach50 is supposedly ~1.5 Shires taper)
* Likely crook (Shires are commonly nickel crooks, Bachs are typically Yellow brass)

With the exception of the undersized rotor, none of these are typically viewed as worse; merely different. Even with the rotors, there are some unbelievably good Bachs out there. Although FWIW I have never played a great 10.5" Bach, but I've also not tried many.

TomInME wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 10:56 am Has Bach always used the same mandrel for both? Why bother if the difference is purely cosmetic? The 10.5 bell requires cocking the slide sideways several degrees, which is an extra design hassle.

It's one reason the 10.5" inch bells are soooooo thin at the rim.

TomInME wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 10:56 am Has Bach always used the same mandrel for both? Why bother if the difference is purely cosmetic? The 10.5 bell requires cocking the slide sideways several degrees, which is an extra design hassle.

Bach has always used a common mandrel, just like they use the same mandrel for the 8.0” 36 and 8.5” 42.
It isn’t just cosmetic, it changes the spread of the sound and the feedback to the player.

Also, it doesn’t really require “cocking the slide” at all.. you can buy a Shires and Edwards horns with 9, 9.5, 10, and 10.5 flares that use the same valves and slide (maybe even more!)

Cheers,
Andy

Shires and Edwards "medium" bore bells are all the same frame. So you could easily get a .562 slide for an 8" bell. Basses also have the same tenon, so you could easily add a "stock" option as small as 508/525 to a 10.5" bell, at least at Shires. I don't think Edwards does that particular size anymore.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 11:01 am

TomInME wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 10:59 am

What other differences? Neckpipe? Tuning slide?

Well, OP is going from a Shires to a Bach: lots of differences!

I was referring to Bach 9.5 vs Bach 10.5

elmsandr wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 12:35 pm Bach has always used a common mandrel, just like they use the same mandrel for the 8.0” 36 and 8.5” 42.
It isn’t just cosmetic, it changes the spread of the sound and the feedback to the player.

So 36 bells and 42 bells have the same throat and play equally open?

TomInME wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:11 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 11:01 am

Well, OP is going from a Shires to a Bach: lots of differences!

I was referring to Bach 9.5 vs Bach 10.5

Just that half inch all the way around. I find the L bells to be wider in sound and character, usually slower responding (but not always!), less center. "open" isn't a word I would use for bells in general.

42 bells sound much broader than 36 bells on the same chassis and slide.

Replying to Andy Elms
Edwards larger diameter bells are mounted with an angle at the bell ferrule, to allow sufficient clearance with the slide. (Mounted a bunch of them in the 12 months I worked there) Can't comment on Shires

For about 10 years I had a Bach 50 with a screw bell and 9.5 and 10.5 inch flares for it. I found the 9.5 inch flare worked better for me. The first year that I owned it our MD programmed Tchaik 5. I decided to play the 10.5 inch flare. In the wind rehearsals, nobody said a word. In the first full orchestra rehearsal the principal viola came up to me at the first break and said, "What did you change?"

I said that I was using a bigger bell flare. He said, "Put it back the way it was."

A couple of days later I got access to the hall and three sets of trusted ears. I played some Rochut, Kopprasch, and some blastissimo stuff from the Tchaik. The consensus was that the bigger bell was much more directional. There wasn't a lot of difference off-axis, but full-on it was louder. I wish we'd had a sound-pressure level to quantify it. The consensus was that they all preferred the 9.5 inch flare. I put it back, and the 10.5 inch flare is now a candy dish.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:41 pm Replying to Andy Elms
Edwards larger diameter bells are mounted with an angle at the bell ferrule, to allow sufficient clearance with the slide. (Mounted a bunch of them in the 12 months I worked there) Can't comment on Shires

Yes. To the other poster, this doesn’t require any change to the slide mounting at all to miss the rim.

I’d also be curious as to the actual angular change, but as the rim to ferrule distance is about 20”, 1/2” elevation change is only about .025” per inch. One degree being 0.0174” per inch, this is bit above a degree off of any theoretical position.

Cheers,
Andy

TomInME wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:14 pm

elmsandr wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 12:35 pm Bach has always used a common mandrel, just like they use the same mandrel for the 8.0” 36 and 8.5” 42.
It isn’t just cosmetic, it changes the spread of the sound and the feedback to the player.

So 36 bells and 42 bells have the same throat and play equally open?

Yes. Same throat. As for “open”, I doubt we could come to a consensus on what that means in this context.

Side note, recently saw somebody that most of us would recognize playing a 36 flare on his Bach 42 chassis…. I only noticed because I happened to see the engraving when I had to bend over to tie my shoes. Sounded very similar out in the hall.

Cheers,
Andy

That's how some of the Bach... I think they're called Liberty(?) are setup. Essentially a Bach 42 slide (I could discern no difference from the "pro" 42 other than the fact it was not stamped 42), Bach 42 slide receiver, etc. BUT with an 8" bell. The bells do appear to be two-piece though, rather than one piece unlike a 36.

Haven't you heard? Size doesn't matter!

Again replying to Andy
The actual angle degree is not a thing when mounting the bell. A jig is used, which includes a representation of the handslide tube. The bell is inserted into the receiver ferrule, and mounted with the requisite distance being established by the bell rim sitting on the jig. In the case of Edwards. On my horns, I mount the bell/tuning slide receiver straight, and adjust the handslide receiver accordingly to give the required clearance

I have seen one horn with an 11" bell, though I don't remember from what brand, but are there bigger bass trombone bells, like 11.5 or 12"? Contra bass trombones are another thing, but for bass?

What would be the, maybe theoretical, point of using larger bells on bass trombones? Somewhere there must be a tradeoff in use contra sound balance that makes the horn not purposeful, or?

I mean; my Yamaha 421 (9.5") plays very differently from my Conn 62 (9.84"), but noone has ever told me they spread very differently or provide a sound different enough that I cannot relate that to my playing instead of the bell size. My guess is that rim size is only a small contributing factor, to the over all working assembly that constitutes the whole horn.

Asking you who build horns: Why do you provide bass trombones with different bell sizes (given that the rest of the horns are of standard assembly)?

JJ Johnson had a small slide with a HUGE bell, maybe 12" or so. Typically, you don't see >10.5".

Gareth Jones in the UK has a custom Rath with an absolutely massive flare.. 11”, 11.5” something like that. Pictures readily available on FB. I don’t know why, but he sounds fine on it according to mutuals that have heard it live.

Cheers,
Andy

tbdana wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:48 am Haven't you heard? Size doesn't matter!

LOL!

elmsandr wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 12:35 pm Bach has always used a common mandrel, just like they use the same mandrel for the 8.0” 36 and 8.5” 42.

Wouldn't those two bells need to be cut at slightly different points on the upper end of the mandrel to have the same perpendicular length? And wouldn't that make them slightly different in the throat? Picture a more extreme example of a 7" bell on the same mandrel as a12" bell.

Not saying it would have to be done that way but we all know that small differences can have noticeable impacts.

Ask this question over in the tuba forum, and see what kind of answer you get.

I personally prefer smaller bell flares for a couple of reasons. First is the practical: smaller bells get creased less often, they are easier to see past and you don't need that huge case. Second may be imaginary, but I think the sound is less diffuse, more focused.

Matt K. A friend of mine in Buffalo owns one of JJ`s Last kings.
It`s a 2B slide with 3 bells a 2B bell, 3B bell and a 4B bell
He said that the 2 & 3B bells work fine but the 4B s a little woofy and hard to control

elmsandr wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:28 am Gareth Jones in the UK has a custom Rath with an absolutely massive flare.. 11”, 11.5” something like that. Pictures readily available on FB. I don’t know why, but he sounds fine on it according to mutuals that have heard it live.

Cheers,
Andy

Just ask him. He'll tell you he sounds great!

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 8:37 am Matt K. A friend of mine in Buffalo owns one of JJ`s Last kings.
It`s a 2B slide with 3 bells a 2B bell, 3B bell and a 4B bell
He said that the 2 & 3B bells work fine but the 4B s a little woofy and hard to control

Do you happen to know if they are bells or bell sections? I'm kinda doing something similar. I have a 607/3B+ setup... but also have a 2B that I'm converting to have the same receivers (probably retapering the 2B neckpipe too, tech is going to make that decision when he gets the receiver parts to measure). So I could use the 2B on the larger bell section, probably not the other way around (it's a .525 lower slide tube so on a 2B bell section, it would be weird unless it was massively retapered).

If it's modular bells I can see that being the case, someone just posted that the neckpipe dimensions are pretty different between the various kind models. IIRC a 2B pipe is as tight as .481, whereas on the other extreme, a 607F or 3BF are both ~.530 since that's the bore of the rotor. I'm honestly wondering if that's the main reason I tend to not like 2Bs. But I could see on the other hand if you had a 2B going to a 4B neckpipe, which I imagine to be at least .547 at it's highest point coming directly from .491 ID of the lower slide on a 2B slide that it would play weird!

TomInME wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 8:08 am

elmsandr wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 12:35 pm Bach has always used a common mandrel, just like they use the same mandrel for the 8.0” 36 and 8.5” 42.

Wouldn't those two bells need to be cut at slightly different points on the upper end of the mandrel to have the same perpendicular length? And wouldn't that make them slightly different in the throat? Picture a more extreme example of a 7" bell on the same mandrel as a12" bell.

Not saying it would have to be done that way but we all know that small differences can have noticeable impacts.

The manner you are conceptualizing this is very different from how I would interpret it.

First define any measurement anywhere on a taper… in machining worlds, this is usually done from some gage line. That is, linear distance from some diameter. So to call the throat of the flare the place between the main bell brace and about 6-8 inches down from there. In this case, the throat of a 7” flare and 12” flare made on the same mandrel are still identical. Sure their overall length will be a little different, but the taper shape is the same.

Same with the 36 and 42, different in length? Maybe a little. Probably less than 1/4”. Heck, the trim cut on the end of the flare inside the ferrule isn’t that square on some of the horns I’ve taken apart. (For reference, I’ve watched these cuts get made on band saws and table saws… the cut is not perpendicular to the axis of the flare when done like that)

Side note, just mounted a fun mystery flare that I got from Cliff Ferree a couple of decades ago. It is 8.5”, slightly larger throat (almost Bach 45 ish), but comes down close to a Bach 42 size… I debated for years whether to trim it to a Bach length and make new ferrules or to let it be longer and fit in standard ferrules. I finally did the latter. Bell position is off, but tuning isn’t significantly affected. Seems to work pretty well, but I haven’t taken it out of the house yet.

Cheers,
Andy

elmsandr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 8:54 am Same with the 36 and 42, different in length? Maybe a little. Probably less than 1/4”. Heck, the trim cut on the end of the flare inside the ferrule isn’t that square on some of the horns I’ve taken apart. (For reference, I’ve watched these cuts get made on band saws and table saws… the cut is not perpendicular to the axis of the flare when done like that)

Cheers,
Andy

The difference in centerline length is certainly much less than the 0.25 inch (6.4 mm) difference in flare diameter. As best I can measure it, the angle at the outer edge of the flare of my 36 is about 5 degrees (but that's subject to a lot of error). If that's correct, the difference in length on the centerline is about 0.6 mm (about 0.03 inch). If it's as much as 15 degrees, the difference in centerline length is about 1.6 mm (0.06 inch).

And the angle is nowhere near 15 degrees.

So is the only real difference the added weight at the rim from the extra .25" or .5" of material?

TomInME wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 9:45 pm So is the only real difference the added weight at the rim from the extra .25" or .5" of material?

The weight is part of it, but the simple material making the flare a different size makes a big difference.

TomInME wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 9:45 pm So is the only real difference the added weight at the rim from the extra .25" or .5" of material?

The angle and shape of the cone at the end of a “speaker” makes a difference, too. Especially on projection and spread of the sound. Even if the change is “only” on the feedback to the player, that will influence greatly how you play and what you hear coming back to you.

Cheers,
Andy