TromboneChat

I’m currently a junior in college, studying bass trombone. As the semester comes to a close, I’m looking to make big improvements over the summer. My teacher thinks I have a different sound when playing loud than I do when I play soft. In his words, “there aren’t enough ‘highs’ in your sound in the soft playing.” He also spread his arms wide and said “your soft sound is like this” and then moved his hands closer together, at his chest, and said “it should be more like this.” While I sort of get what he’s saying, he seems to be hellbent on suggesting that it’s an equipment thing, and that I should buy a new horn before my senior year starts. I’m not totally against the idea, but it is a lot of money. I auditioned for a couple of orchestras and didn’t advance at either, and the sound thing seems to be what he thinks is the culprit. I can’t really hear it, but I’m not really on that side of the bell. I kinda get what he means when I use a really nice mic, but even then I’m just not sure. Personally, I think its a consistency problem. I recorded one of my auditions and there was just a lot of chipped and missed notes. The style, I think, was pretty close. At least it was what I was wanting to do.

I talked to my jazz trombone teacher, and he says I make every horn sound great, but it’s more about getting the core of my sound farther away from the bell. Ex, alessi can get the core of his soft playing about a foot or two away from his bell. This makes his soft playing sound right in your ear even when he’s far away. I can't do that at all, or at least I don’t think. My jazz teacher says he cant really do that himself. Even at the height of his career he couldn’t get the core more than about 6 inches away from his bell.

Are they talking about the same problem? I’m just really confused and don’t know how to proceed. On one hand, my classical teacher says I need a new horn. On the other, my jazz teacher says every pro horn does what I need it to do, and that it’s more about air efficiency. I’m happy to work on my playing, but I’m just wondering if anyone here thinks it might actually be necessary to get a new horn to fix that problem. For reference, I play a shires Q series, rotors, with a markey 85 griego piece. I really like this setup. My jazz teacher also mentioned the piece and the leadpipe should match really really well, which can also fix that problem. But he was mainly stressing use of air. What do you all think? Additionally, assuming I can fix the problem, what section of arbans or what books do you recommend? Sorry if I posted this in the wrong section, I think this is the right one tho. Just looking for guidance.

Which leadpipe do you have in the slide? If you're using the 3, try the 2.

Do you/can you buzz the mouthpiece?

Don't worry yet about what's happening at auditions. Most people who take them don't advance. I've been in the finals of an audition and then not made it out of the first round at a different audition in the same week.

While it is tempting to solve this with equipment, in your case I think it's more about the mechanics of playing. You can almost hear what Alessi is doing to get that sparkle in his sound without even seeing it -- the overtones in his sound are almost certainly the result of tongue placement. I believe he's got the back of his tongue up high, near the roof of his mouth to help produce that sparkle.

The common mistake for a lot of college players is to keep the tongue as low as possible for all playing. You should try doing the opposite, or at least split the difference.

THEN once you see how that affects the sound, you can seek out equipment that makes it easier for you to do.

The analogy about someone making sound appear 2 ft outside of the instrument is almost certainly not true. Guys like Alessi and Lindberg sound like they are next to you on pp playing because they know how to project, and in Lindberg's case he uses equipment to actively reduce energy being lost from "unnecessary" vibrations in the bell.

The different sound while playing softer and the chipped notes are, I believe, related. They’re related to keeping the embouchure formed and stable no matter what kind of playing you’re doing.

1. Different sound while playing soft. Are you keeping your embouchure formed and stable—firm corners and focused middle/aperture—during soft and loud playing? If anything, very soft playing while keeping a full, rich sound requires more intensity and effort than loud playing. The tending is to think “soft=less focus,” and we allow the embouchure to relax or “sag”slightly. This causes the change in timbre and projection.

Keep the embouchure firm. If you think* of very loud playing with an aperture that is, say, the width/diameter of a straw for Boba tea, then regular mf or mp playing is the size of a normal pencil or a soda straw. Pianissimo might then be diameter of a paper clip.

* “Think” as in conceptualize. The aperture isn’t really that size; it’s a just a way to describe the relative nature of flesh and dynamics.

2. Chipped notes. I’ve been using Doug Elliott’s procedure of Set, Breath, Play.

• Set the mouthpiece on the embouchure: right where it sits while you play, and using only enough pressure for contact.

• Breathe by opening the corners of the mouth. You can get as much air into the lungs as quickly as removing the mouthpiece and opening up your mouth like a fish. Keep it simple: leave the mouthpiece in place and opening the corners.

• Play. The corners snap into place an instant before the note starts, whether it’s a breath attack or tongued.

The procedure here is important. Timing and rhythm aren’t the problem.

FWIW, I keep the tip of my tongue touching the hard palate just above my front teeth. Touching, not pressing. While it feels different, and can cause some dry mouth (different than the nervous/anxiety kind of dry mouth), it doesn’t affect capacity on the inhale.

Keep the air moving. Air shouldn’t stop. Inhale-exhale with turn-around but no stops or pauses. It should be like waves on a beach—always in motion.

Practice breath attacks with this in mind. Use something simple, like Cimera’s phrasing studies. Breath attacks to start each phrase, beautiful and musical legato, then inhale-breath attack and the next note starts.

As said above, it's very, very easy to play soft with no core or center. And from behind the bell, before you understand what it feels like, it can feel fine- "I'm playing soft! What else should it feel like?"

The best playing feels pretty "dry" behind the bell. This can seem counterintuitive, and many younger players (including myself for a long time) wanted to hear lots of warmth and what felt like "resonance" as feedback. This goes doubly for bass trombone, but it's just as easy to fall into as a tenor player as well.

That is why I like having an unsoldered, two piece bell

I tried another 42 the other day. I don't know how you Bach guys do it.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 11:05 am Which leadpipe do you have in the slide? If you're using the 3, try the 2.

Do you/can you buzz the mouthpiece?

Don't worry yet about what's happening at auditions. Most people who take them don't advance. I've been in the finals of an audition and then not made it out of the first round at a different audition in the same week.

I am using the 3. I never liked the two that came with my horn, but I still have it so when I get home this summer I’ll try that out.

Yes I do some buzzing, could always do more. What do you recommend? I mainly just do a little bit when I’m struggling to slur in a given range.

Thanks.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 12:03 pm As said above, it's very, very easy to play soft with no core or center. And from behind the bell, before you understand what it feels like, it can feel fine- "I'm playing soft! What else should it feel like?"

The best playing feels pretty "dry" behind the bell. This can seem counterintuitive, and many younger players (including myself for a long time) wanted to hear lots of warmth and what felt like "resonance" as feedback. This goes doubly for bass trombone, but it's just as easy to fall into as a tenor player as well.

Interesting. I’ll have to play around with it a bit. It’s funny, when I play in a section everyone thinks it sounds fine. It’s only in solo playing when I get these comments. The other players must mask the sound, that and it blends pretty well I guess. Thank you

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 11:41 am The different sound while playing softer and the chipped notes are, I believe, related. They’re related to keeping the embouchure formed and stable no matter what kind of playing you’re doing.

1. Different sound while playing soft. Are you keeping your embouchure formed and stable—firm corners and focused middle/aperture—during soft and loud playing? If anything, very soft playing while keeping a full, rich sound requires more intensity and effort than loud playing. The tending is to think “soft=less focus,” and we allow the embouchure to relax or “sag”slightly. This causes the change in timbre and projection.

Keep the embouchure firm. If you think* of very loud playing with an aperture that is, say, the width/diameter of a straw for Boba tea, then regular mf or mp playing is the size of a normal pencil or a soda straw. Pianissimo might then be diameter of a paper clip.

* “Think” as in conceptualize. The aperture isn’t really that size; it’s a just a way to describe the relative nature of flesh and dynamics.

2. Chipped notes. I’ve been using Doug Elliott’s procedure of Set, Breath, Play.

• Set the mouthpiece on the embouchure: right where it sits while you play, and using only enough pressure for contact.

• Breathe by opening the corners of the mouth. You can get as much air into the lungs as quickly as removing the mouthpiece and opening up your mouth like a fish. Keep it simple: leave the mouthpiece in place and opening the corners.

• Play. The corners snap into place an instant before the note starts, whether it’s a breath attack or tongued.

The procedure here is important. Timing and rhythm aren’t the problem.

FWIW, I keep the tip of my tongue touching the hard palate just above my front teeth. Touching, not pressing. While it feels different, and can cause some dry mouth (different than the nervous/anxiety kind of dry mouth), it doesn’t affect capacity on the inhale.

Keep the air moving. Air shouldn’t stop. Inhale-exhale with turn-around but no stops or pauses. It should be like waves on a beach—always in motion.

Practice breath attacks with this in mind. Use something simple, like Cimera’s phrasing studies. Breath attacks to start each phrase, beautiful and musical legato, then inhale-breath attack and the next note starts.

I’ll give all that a go. That’ll be a nice change from doing solely a lot arbans sync studies for articulation. I’ll work both into the routine.

Thanks!

isaynaynay57 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 12:52 pm I am using the 3. I never liked the two that came with my horn, but I still have it so when I get home this summer I’ll try that out.

Yes I do some buzzing, could always do more. What do you recommend? I mainly just do a little bit when I’m struggling to slur in a given range.

Thanks.

Lack of focus or intensity to the sound is a possible by-product of a leadpipe that's too big - and the 3 is too big for most players.

Mouthpiece practice is a slightly controversial topic - there are those who say it's unnecessary or even detrimental, but what I find is that mindful daily mouthpiece practice to connect the middle register to both low and high registers helps with focus and core of sound.

Try playing tunes on the mouthpiece: Bordogni, Cimera, melodic songs you know by ear. Start in the easy middle register and then move around so that you are expanding your range. Always strive for a simple, pure sound that is consistent in the signal to noise ratio as you move registers.

I think you have a whole bunch of different inefficiencies going on, compounded by you have a darker sound in your head (preferring the lead pipe that's too big) and that is preventing you from getting a lively sound. But it's mechanics, and resonance or lack of proper resonance due to mechanics. And chipping or missing notes is totally related to the same thing.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 2:05 pm I think you have a whole bunch of different inefficiencies going on, compounded by you have a darker sound in your head (preferring the lead pipe that's too big) and that is preventing you from getting a lively sound. But it's mechanics, and resonance or lack of proper resonance due to mechanics. And chipping or missing notes is totally related to the same thing.

You’re correct, I do have a slightly darker sound in my head than I am producing. I do enjoy playing loud, but I often feel my sound gets too bright when I do so. No one really agrees with me on that one, though. I think people generally think it sounds pretty okay. How do we change the sound we have in our head? At least for soft playing? I feel like I’m trying to replicate what a lot of bass trombonists sound like in their soft playing. Maybe I should try picturing a more tenor-y sound? What do you think?

As of late, I am working really hard to be more efficient. I think I’ve gotten to a point where I’m noticing I’m not as efficient I can be. It’s almost always when I start the note too, I’m starting to tell I lose more air then.

I can easily get you there in a lesson, but not by just describing it here. I have to actually be able to work with you.