Bass trombone sound concept: Classical vs Jazz

[nateaff]

How do you guys/gals approach the different sound ideals of a Big Band vs a classical setting?

On tenor it seems much more intuitive just because I'm playing drastically different horns so it's easier to get into the headspace of "when I'm playing this horn, this is the sound it oughta make". It also feels as if by big Xeno and my little 2B "want" to be played a certain way.

On bass I'm using the same gear for everything, is it just a matter of changing my way of thinking with the sound. It feels a little like even if all the articulations and "ink" are played correctly I still sound like a classical player in a jazzer's clothing.

[Burgerbob]

It's all about the details. How you start a note, what you do in the middle, and how you end it.

I'm not going to say that I'm great at it either, but the players I aspire to be like can change that style at the drop of a hat- go from classical sustain of a note to the more nuanced approach to a jazz long note.

[hyperbolica]

On bass, I think it's the same idea as on tenor. You want a lighter sound, with access to more "edge" at lower volume. The only real way to do that is to use a smaller horn, maybe harder articulations. You do it on tenor, I think you need to also do it on bass. This is why the Duo Gravis is cited so frequently as a commercial/jazz bass. In pop styles you don't want to push hard and have it just come out thick sounding, you need a little bite especially in the front of the note. Unless you're playing a solo, then you need the rounder sound at volume.

If you're doing a lot of walking bass, then it's a different. To get a believable walking bass, you need to sound like a bass, which is definitely a darker sound (no bark). I have a hard time doing all of that effectively on a single horn.

One thing I think I do on jazz styles is to treat most notes like they have a little sFp on it - a little accent, and definitely back off the body of the note. But yeah, I try to pick a smaller horn for jazz, if I can. Unfortunately, they don't make real bass trombones in a smaller size, so I wind up making some sub-optimal hardware choices to try to get a brighter sound down low (without sounding too much like a ripsaw) than I would for classical bass bone.

Bass trombone is not done evolving yet.

[ghmerrill]

I've been struggling with this lately since I recently joined a big band as their bass. When I originally set up my horn I wanted to make it sound more like a symphonic bass, although it could never really go there. So I put in a lead pipe I thought would do that (Brass Ark MV50R) and I think I got as close as I could on this horn.

Then (in anticipation of starting with the big band), I decided I'd try something that might be "more suitable" for jazz and got an M/K George Roberts nickel pipe. (I mean -- George Roberts -- what could go wrong?) After playing on it for several weeks, I liked a lot of the sound (especially in mid and high range), but it just wasn't working well for the real bassy stuff and was being too much of a workout in terms of articulation and tone quality. So I'm back on the MV50R and it really just feels more "natural" and easier to play. Anything in terms of "brighter" sound in the midrange and above, I'll have to do without any extra help from the lead pipe. And I like the somewhat darker sound it puts out in the low range compared to the nickel GR pipe. And the horn will bark if I want it to.

I've also spent a LOT of time switching back and forth between rim sizes and shanks -- and switched back to my K9 shank from the K10, and sticking with the 112 rim instead of going with the 114.

But really, I think what's needed from the bass is ... err ... mostly bass. And otherwise, that particular "kind" of music (I think) is really more about the rhythm, the patterns, and the sort of note and tone quality shaping that Aiden seems to be talking about. I feel that whatever equipment I choose may leave me with something of a compromise that I may need to work harder on in places to get what I want.

[Doug Elliott]

Regardless of anything about the sound or even the attack style...
Don't be late.
And don't be early either.
It's more about time than "sound."
And don't play longer notes than the tenors. That drags it down.

[Burgerbob]

Regardless of anything about the sound or even the attack style...
Don't be late.
And don't be early either.
It's more about time than "sound."

[ghmerrill]

It's more about time than "sound."

That's the one thing I noticed most this time around. I hadn't played music like this since my last year in college (1969) -- and then not trombone since I was playing the 2nd tenor sax book. It's taking me a bit of time to come back up to speed on the whole time thing.

[TomInME]

One thing I think I do on jazz styles is to treat most notes like they have a little sFp on it - a little accent, and definitely back off the body of the note.

Yeah, it's more about tonguing harder not playing louder - and because the fronts of your notes will be more defined, they need to be in the right place (as Doug said).

Definitely play as short as the tenors (as Doug also said). Listen to some old recordings, you'll be surprised just how short that can be. Tongue cut-offs / stops are normal - it's really the only way to define the ends of notes as clearly as the fronts.

Last but not least, enjoy all the extra stuff you get to play compared to classical.

[AndrewMeronek]

Paying attention to articulations really is the biggest thing.

I also find that in orchestra or classical chamber music I'm able to explore a lot more of the "soft" side of the bass trombone, which can be really nice. In jazz, with the typical amplified instruments, those ensembles never really get to the same kind of "piano" dynamic. So, overall I play louder in jazz.

[GabrielRice]

As has been suggested already, it's about note shapes, which includes articulation, sustain (or not) and release.

Very generally speaking, in classical bass trombone styles you want a rounder articulation with thick sustain and an open release.

Very generally speaking, in big band jazz style you want an articulation with more pop and less thickness to the sound in the body of the note. Often a tongue stop is the appropriate ending.

In both cases - and for everything in between - that's only a baseline approach, however - if that's all you ever do it's boring, and you need to be listening well to the group for style.

It's entirely possible to make these style changes without changing any equipment, though there are certainly some bass trombones that lend themselves more easily to one approach or the other.

[ngrinder]

I think getting the correct sound/time concept in our head is more important than equipment choice. My go to is Dave Taylor on Bob Mintzer’s Incredible Journey. Nothing beats his sound and time on that album.

Sort through big band albums made from 1960 onward, and look out for Tony Studd, Paul Faulise, Dave, etc. There are others, of course, and many fantastic contemporary players to listen to, but I think it’s smart to take one or two albums and really just sear that sound concept into your brain. The act of listening for a single voice in the trombone section will also get you acquainted with the music on a much deeper level. Once you have that blueprint the mechanics will follow. It’s very common for classical musicians to not have a strong sense of swing/time feel-it takes a lot of time and work to develop, but it all starts with listening.

[TomInME]

In jazz, with the typical amplified instruments, those ensembles never really get to the same kind of "piano" dynamic.

Good bands can play soft enough to hear people talking in the back row, and take more risk of a note not speaking than would be countenanced in classical. But you are at the mercy of the amplified instruments and/or sound guy - if they get carried away, it's gonna be a long night...

[Burgerbob]

Yup... Jazz does not mean "loud," despite many bands assuming that.

[harrisonreed]

It's all about knowing the style. And knowing what the lead trumpeter is going to do with the accents and ends of notes (your lead trombone should be channeling it to you, but...). And knowing the couple times in the set where the bass needs to bark.

[GGJazz]

Hi folks.

It would be really nice if it were enough to change instrument / leadpide / mpc , to play correctly classical music or jazz music...!

As others people posted above , the sound concept , and , most important , the way to play on time , have to be developed by listening and imitating . Of course , it take time to achieve good results.

In my opinion , a thing that is not so often mentioned is that playing jazz require a slide motion different than playing classical .

As you know , if you play - for example- four eigth notes , starting on downbeat , the second and the fourth notes have to be delayed . If you play classical etc , no delay at all .
So , a player have to perform a slide motion that MATCH this delay correctly ; and that will be different from the slide motion that occours to play classical music , of course
This delay of the upbeat is not established by " chance"; it must be compatible with the Jazz "language" , which CANNOT be exactly written on paper , but only IMITATED after careful listening to how the great Jazzmen play on time , and then playing along with the records to match it perfectly .

To make an example , if you play in a Jazz Ensemble a dotted quarter note ( starting on downbeat) followed by one eight note , lots of classical trained players will play the eight note earlier , because of this different concept of slide motion , and because they do not feel the delay correctly .

Honestly , I do not understand the pourpose of the above mentioned " tongue cut - off stop" .... Never used this approach , absolutely....

Regards
Giancarlo

[tbdana]

Lotsa good stuff in this thread, especially from Aiden, Doug, and Gabe. I'd reread those comments and commit them to memory.

I'll add my to the discussion about attacks, note shapes, and especially time. In jazz, and especially in a big band, time is Job #1.

It's not about equipment so much as approach. But there is a fair difference in bass trombone tone quality that can be accomplished with equipment choices. In jazz, the bass trombone sound has less warmth and breadth, but is more compact and emphasizes core and brilliance.

As for volume, the best big bands I've played with get surprisingly loud, and on the other end are not super soft. I've heard bass trombonists say that the bass trombone should be as loud as the lead trumpet. (When I was on Buddy Rich's band the bass trombonist was Pete Beltran, a little guy with a huge sound, who always matched the volume of the lead trumpet and maybe just a little bit more.) Which makes sense because in big bands the bass trombone is really a lead instrument. It's prominent. It's foundational. It needs to have a strong presence.

[ghmerrill]

But there is a fair difference in bass trombone tone quality that can be accomplished with equipment choices. In jazz, the bass trombone sound has less warmth and breadth, but is more compact and emphasizes core and brilliance.

That's where I was going with the nickel GR lead pipe. And it did provide that. But I lost some ease and quality in the bottom end (primarily the double valve stuff) that the MV50 gives me with ease.

The bass trombone is also part of the rhythm section, and needs to listen to the double bass/bass guitar and the bari sax. A lot of time it's fully a member of the trombone section (although sometimes doubling 3rd), but also sometimes (depending on the piece) it's doing something else in in terms of providing bass and countermelody.

[harrisonreed]

Honestly , I do not understand the pourpose of the above mentioned " tongue cut - off stop" .... Never used this approach , absolutely....

Regards
Giancarlo

It's an "active release" at the end of any sustained note. How are you going to play a marcato (or sometimes accent) quarter note correctly if you aren't playing a big fat "DAHHT" ?

Or how will you play a dotted half note that has an active release on four without a tongue stop on beat four? It'll be muddy without it.

[Bach5G]

There’s some nice bass trombone playing on Vanguard JO’s Monday Night Live recording. Doug Purviance did some of the production/engineering and the bass bone was nicely captured. Presence without blattisimo (or blastisimo).

[flotrb]

Here is a nice example of Edward Kleinhammer (Bach 50B w/Bach 1½G), crossing over to the jazz side with no problems: https://youtu.be/x8iC0U1l7ys?si=4rnynmFPYoHuiixG

[GGJazz]

Hello again.

Hi Harrison !

Well , to me , in any situation , to stop a tone I just stop blowing. The point is to stop the blow EXACTLY at the right moment . No tongue stop , just air stop .This is my opinion .

Regards
Giancarlo

[harrisonreed]

Hello again.

Hi Harrison !

Well , to me , in any situation , to stop a tone I just stop blowing. The point is to stop the blow EXACTLY at the right moment . No tongue stop , just air stop .This is my opinion .

Regards
Giancarlo

Hi Giancarlo! I am no master of big band music or jazz, but I wouldn't be able to do these tunes without tongue stops:





You lose a whole articulation and type of note ending if you don't have the tongue stop in your tool bag.

[TomInME]

Well , to me , in any situation , to stop a tone I just stop blowing. The point is to stop the blow EXACTLY at the right moment . No tongue stop , just air stop .This is my opinion .

This might be "in time", but will be perceived by listeners as longer than tongue cut-offs. It's not as clearly defined, and stylistically, jazz usually requires more definition.

[TomInME]

I've heard bass trombonists say that the bass trombone should be as loud as the lead trumpet.

Absolutely, if you have the bass line. Otherwise, you're a 4th tenor.

And this is where equipment choices can be difficult: wanting to be able to crank double-trigger C's that match the lead trumpet's volume, without being too dark everywhere. You can keep a great color and struggle with those double-trigger notes, or you can go big to make the low stuff easy and sound tubby. The middle ground is very narrow.

[sf105]

I listen to a lot of baritone sax players for concept. The line is often doubled anyway.

[Doug Elliott]

Hello again.

Hi Harrison !

Well , to me , in any situation , to stop a tone I just stop blowing. The point is to stop the blow EXACTLY at the right moment . No tongue stop , just air stop .This is my opinion .

Regards
Giancarlo

I was going to post this same thing myself, fully knowing that there would be pushback from the tongue-stop advocates.

Personally, I never stop a note with the tongue - just stop the air. It can be just as short and percussive as those who like to stop with the tongue.

[ghmerrill]

You can keep a great color and struggle with those double-trigger notes, or you can go big to make the low stuff easy and sound tubby. The middle ground is very narrow.

So it's not just me. I can avoid at least some of the tubiness (tubbyness?), but it takes corresponding effort and strong embouchure. I've decided that for my current role, it's more important to get the lower end right.

About a week ago I did read a good piece by a bass trombonist, and one line in it was "Always play loud -- no matter how much the trumpet section complains." (or words to that effect).

[tbdana]

Hello again.

Hi Harrison !

Well , to me , in any situation , to stop a tone I just stop blowing. The point is to stop the blow EXACTLY at the right moment . No tongue stop , just air stop .This is my opinion .

Regards
Giancarlo

I was going to post this same thing myself, fully knowing that there would be pushback from the tongue-stop advocates.

Personally, I never stop a note with the tongue - just stop the air. It can be just as short and percussive as those who like to stop with the tongue.

Generally speaking, and very specifically in big bands, every note we play has one of three dominant functions: It is melodic, it is harmonic, or it is rhythmic. (Of course, it's usually all three to some extent, but only one serves the dominant function.)

In big bands, trombones very often play background and this usually means you play some percussive rhythmic notes: notes whose only function is percussion; quick hits that stop as quickly as the snare drum that is usually also playing them. Depending on the chart, sometimes those notes are really fat, but often (especially in modern big band music) it calls for an extremely short hit. You get that percussion effect best and easiest with the tongue stopping the note, with a "tit" articulation. (Don't go there you sickos! )

It happens so often, and it contributes so much to the groove of the chart, that using the tongue to stop the note is extremely useful. This is especially true for bass trombone, where the air moves slower and it's harder to get a distinct and very short stop without using the tongue.

[GGJazz]

Hi all.

Well , different point of wiew. I am glad that my point match with Doug point !
You can be super percussive and well definited just stopping to blow.....
I play bass trbn chair in Big Band , but , as I said above , I NEVER use the tongue to stop a tone .

But if someone like this way , it' s fine....

Regards
Giancarlo

[TomInME]

I've decided that for my current role, it's more important to get the lower end right.

Gotta do whatcha gotta do. I'm trying to move just far enough in that direction to get the beef I want on C/B without losing too much color. Doug was helping me get there until I said to use tongue stops

[TomInME]

I think getting the correct sound/time concept in our head is more important than equipment choice. My go to is Dave Taylor on Bob Mintzer’s Incredible Journey. Nothing beats his sound and time on that album.

Yes!

[Olofson]

About stopping the tone with the tongue, in some bands it is an agreed style. In some other bands it is not. It is a quite audioble difference. The Baise clip above says it all. Most players can not cut of like that whout using the tonguestop. But if you can, well go for it.

not a brass instrument, but it is the same style sometimes.

[CBlair]

Doug Elliot -
"And don't play longer notes than the tenors. That drags it down."

A great reminder when playing choice phat notes.

[ghmerrill]

Gotta do whatcha gotta do. I'm trying to move just far enough in that direction to get the beef I want on C/B without losing too much color.

After some hand wringing (and looking at a few threads on leadpipes and some things that leadpipe makers have said), I decided today to see what the result would be of cutting down my George Roberts nickel leadpipe, and cut about 3/8" off it, and -- voila! -- there it was. Great color and resonance overall, including the double valve register, and easy to jump into that register with no extra effort. Overall, it feels noticeably more efficient. This acoustics stuff is a murky art.

[harrisonreed]

What did you use to expand the leadpipe after you cut it?

[TomInME]

After some hand wringing (and looking at a few threads on leadpipes and some things that leadpipe makers have said), I decided today to see what the result would be of cutting down my George Roberts nickel leadpipe, and cut about 3/8" off it, and -- voila! -- there it was. Great color and resonance overall, including the double valve register, and easy to jump into that register with no extra effort. Overall, it feels noticeably more efficient. This acoustics stuff is a murky art.

Nice! Doug set me up with an XB L/L10 to replace my 1 1/4GM and it opened up the bottom end a nice amount - it's a bit darker (I had some leeway there), but still focused and plenty of zing when the volume steps up. Maybe I should look into a nickel leadpipe...

[ghmerrill]

What did you use to expand the leadpipe after you cut it?

Why would I need to expand it?

[ghmerrill]

Nice! Doug set me up with an XB L/L10 to replace my 1 1/4GM and it opened up the bottom end a nice amount - it's a bit darker (I had some leeway there), but still focused and plenty of zing when the volume steps up. Maybe I should look into a nickel leadpipe...

I have a K10 for my setup, but I really ended up just using it (in combination with a 114 rim) as a "training aid" to extend range reliably into the double valve register. It's really too open for me in terms of normal playing. Particulary for the big band, the 112 rim and K9 shank work much better for me.

[Lastbone]

Sorry to be late in this conversation... Jazz and classical both take quite a while to get the nuances right, or even close.
For me, orchestral playing is still challenging after 32 years. You need good posture, an open throat and real care with the attacks. Pitch and sound are primary, as well as being able to come in cold after lots of rests.
Jazz requires a large dose of reckless abandon. The articulations are heavy, you use more lip, and you slide in and out of notes a lot.
The players I know, both trombone and trumpet, and fabulous singers as well, lose their classical chops if they play one night of jazz per week. Nobody wants to hear someone "kiss off" by accident at the end of an orchestral solo.

[harrisonreed]

What did you use to expand the leadpipe after you cut it?

Why would I need to expand it?

I might be exposing some ignorance on my part, but it's my understanding that a leadpipe is not cylindrical -- it's hour glass shaped. So if you cut it shorter, the diameter on the end will be reduced and it won't be .562" on the end anymore.

fpaq1wmglheik2y097tm.jpg

The images of the construction of leadpipes on Getzen's page (the first thing that comes up in Google) are misleading because it makes it seem like a leadpipe is completely cylindrical on the outside and somehow tapered only on the inside. But I believe they are drawn from a single gauge of tubing, resulting in an hourglass shape internally and externally.

[ghmerrill]

Yes, that may be true (well, definitely is true in terms of the overall dimensions of a leadpipe). If you measure the OD of a leadpipe at different places with a digital caliper, you'll see the differences. But I think there are a couple of answers to that. The first one is "So what?". That is, what would be the consequences of that? But bypassing that response in terms of any theory of leadpipe design (or maybe in response to it), the difference in end diameter will almost certainly be negligible. It's not like you're lopping off a few inches.

In this case, I didn't measure the end diameter of the pipe I cut, but measuring that now I can see that the difference in outside diameter of the cut M/K George Roberts pipe and the (uncut!) Brass Ark MV50 pipe I have is .003". So I don't see anything to be concerned about with this. It's definitely not enough of a difference for me to (for whatever reason) attempt to expand the end of the pipe a mere .003", even if I had good equipment to do that. And since I'm interested in the empirical results -- which I have to say are unexpectedly good -- it doesn't matter.

None of this is to say that I recommend to anyone that they start hacking off the ends of their leadpipes. Given what I'd seen about pipe shortening, I was curious to see if it might make a significant difference and was fully prepared to feel bad about screwing up a perfectly good pipe if that didn't work. That was a big part of the hand wringing prior to the act.

[TomInME]

The players I know, both trombone and trumpet, and fabulous singers as well, lose their classical chops if they play one night of jazz per week.

Seems more likely that they would lose their jazz chops by playing classical 6 nights a week... (math)

[ghmerrill]

I don't have classical chops. I have community band chops. So no obvious loss, and very likely a significant gain.

[Elow]

The bore at the end of a leadpipe is not the same as the slide, this is what makes leadpipes play differently, the difference in the internals. I wouldnt stress about that unless it is causing a leak/not sealing properly at the end. There is a little bit of wiggle room at the end of your leadpipe, though .003" is making a large ish difference in the OD. If it plays good then it is good!

[tim]

Yup... Jazz does not mean "loud," despite many bands assuming that.

[Bach5G]

Yup... Jazz does not mean "loud," despite many bands assuming that.

There’s a difference between ‘blastissimo’ and ‘blattissimo’.

[harrisonreed]

There’s a difference between ‘blastissimo’ and ‘blattissimo’.

There's also a difference between a professional playing actually loud and an amateur playing "loud". The professional will sound genuinely loud, and the amateur will just sound blatty, and will actually be kind of mezzo. So then we get an idea that loud is bad, but the real issue is being able to just play with a good full sound. The kids in college playing everything "covered" is the result. I'm tired of the muffled cotton-ball sound that is supposedly "classical". Don't bring that baggage over to the commercial styles. Sure, jazz is basically classical music now but....

Big bands, at least, are loud.

[Doug Elliott]

When the Artie Shaw band was going (I played lead for about 17 years at the end of the era), there were certain sections of tunes where the entire band would play softer than I had ever experienced in any group, any genre.

I think it was a Boston thing, since most of the members were from there. Certain no one in DC can or would do that.

The key to it is, if you can hear yourself, you're too loud.

[Burgerbob]

Big bands in LA do not play loud most of the time. I love it. Music can happen, not just decibels.

[TomInME]

Big bands in LA do not play loud most of the time. I love it. Music can happen, not just decibels.

My experience is not very broad, but is it typical of studio players to not take things quite as far as some bands that only/mostly play live?