TromboneChat

Anybody working on these? How’s it going?

I had a go at advanced embouchure studies for bass trombone back during Covid. I can’t say I got very far.

I pulled the book down from the shelf today and had another stab at it. I have to admit, it was a bit easier than before. At least, I think so.

I’m going to try and keep it going for a while.

I think most bass trombonists go through a period where Teele’s book is essential. Paul Kempe make a version for tenor, based on Teele’s book.

35 years ago, I used to do them almost every day. I saw benefits to that kind of routine. But it also highlighted some of my embouchure problems at the time. I stopped doing Teele’s routine about 30 years ago. I have occasionally tried it again, but I have only so many hours in the day, and too few to practice.

When I’ve laid off for a while, I’ll do a modified version to get back into shape, usually by playing softly with only a few repetitions per note, along with slow slurs (Bill Hill, etc.) and scale patterns.

A question. PT says not to shift. But what if you can’t get the notes to speak without shifting?. Stop and work on on the notes you can get or shift and play those last few notes?

PT or not... it's not a gig, so you don't have to make those notes happen at any cost. Play what you can unshifted, really focus on identifying exactly what makes the lowest notes you can manage speak on time, sound good, and feel easy. After a while you learn something... at which point the project stays the same, and the notes happen to be lower. Everyone seems to have the same issue, and no one's found a shortcut.

Well there is a shortcut... learn the actual correct application of the pivot your embouchure needs (which is often not what you think) combined wirh creating the necessary oral cavity without shifting.

Otherwise, what ithinknot said.

As others have said:
They won't make you play correctly if you have to do basic adjustments.
But if you play generally correctly, they can help a lot to solidify your low - and also high! - register.

I do not and think have never done them exactly as written. But usually when I am preparing for a more challenging bass trombone gig and might have played more tenor/alto, I will practice more of it.

I would say this is one reason why I can rely on a very solid low and extreme low range.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:59 pm Well there is a shortcut... learn the actual correct application of the pivot your embouchure needs (which is often not what you think) combined wirh creating the necessary oral cavity without shifting.

Otherwise, what ithinknot said.

Yes, I should have said that too... if it feels like you've hit a wall or you have the "I don't understand how anyone gets below G without shifting" feeling, then there's absolutely a category error somewhere that might be a very quick fix. Beyond that point, it seems like gradual, steady progress might be the norm.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:23 pm A question. PT says not to shift. But what if you can’t get the notes to speak without shifting?. Stop and work on on the notes you can get or shift and play those last few notes?

I believe it is better to not shift, play as low you can even if the sound is very quit and weak. Be sure that the lips meat each other, but not to hard. I believe in practise pedals very soft. But also loud as you have to be able to play loud pedals sometimes in bands. Work on the notes you can get, kep going as long as you get any sound at all.

It seems to me this morning that if weight trading is a proper analogy, there’s no benefit and, indeed, there may be a penalty, in using bad form (shifting) as opposed to maintaining good form (not shifting) for as long as you can.

High range- I hit a high F on my tenor warming up last night. Where did that come from?

I don’t know why, but I’m finding Teeles slightly easier this time around. I am paying closer attention to the directions in the book and watching the YouTube videos (thanks to the person who posted those!) this time around.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:59 pm Well there is a shortcut... learn the actual correct application of the pivot your embouchure needs (which is often not what you think) combined wirh creating the necessary oral cavity without shifting.

Otherwise, what ithinknot said.

Doug: I had a session with you (on tenor) in Seattle a few years ago. Would this be a similar pivot to what I would use on tenor? I had a slash embouchure, moving diagonally, from low to high range. I just tried that and it seemed to be effective.

Yes, chances are it would be the same for you on any brass instrument, trumpet to tuba.

I overdid Teeles 15 years ago. I ended up with TMJ syndrome and quit trombone because it became too painful.

Be careful. It does not need to be said, but if you have residual tension after a session, let it go away before you start another.

What’s the definition here for “shifting”? I think what I am envisioning in my head is different than what this thread is actually discussing.

Two opposite possibilities that I call shifting:

When you let the mouthpiece drift to a lower position on your top lip to get low notes, usually accompanied by opening your mouth a lot.

When you completely change your mouthpiece placement to get low notes, usually raising the placement.

Or a combination of both, first one and then the other as you descend.

In either case you have to reposition the mouthpiece (again) to get back to normal range.

Phil Teele's approach was to use a great amount of repetition to train your chops to do the slow vibration of low notes without shifting at all.

Alan Raph's video is sometimes mentioned here, where he advocates the "raised embouchure" for the bottom notes.

Most players hit a wall around pedal G and have to make some change to get past it. The quick way is to shift. The problem with that is you never learn how to do it without shifting. It is possible, but it takes longer to learn. That's what I teach and I consider it better in the long term. It incorporates the entire range into one mouthpiece placement instead of multiple placements.

Does t also work when tou have to step on it? Like an FF pedal A for instance. I would love to play that A just as loud without shifting!

Hi folks.

In my opinion , I would be very very careful practicing as suggested in this book by Phil Teele .
To me , all these hundreds of pedals and low tones could be pretty detrimental for the embouchure .

I think that there are not shortcuts to develop that range from low Eb to double pedals . We have to incorporate these note in all the aspects of playing ( scales , arpeggios , flexibility , melodic etudes , etc ) , then going lower step by step , during the years . Playing it FF should be the last thing to aim , in my opinion .

I also think that we should be able to play pedals with no shifting at all . Of course , going lower than around pedal E with no shift will results on some "soft tones" , speaking about dynamic level .
But you can play a pedal G or F super loud , with a regular embouchure .

Shifting can be used if you have to play a pedal Eb at FFF dynamic . So , in this case , I am using the "raised" embouchure , as suggested by Alan Raph .
It is not a big problem , being that usually you will find very few notes like these , both in Big Band and in Symphony Orchestra ..

Regards
Giancarlo

The best long term strategy is what Giancarlo just said.
Consider the shift as a cheat method that you do only when absolutely necessary. Don't make it how you play all the time. Spend your time practicing NOT shifting, that's the only way you will get better at it.

And THIS

is "middle Bb" where you should start your day.

If you typically start an octave lower than that, try starting higher.

Thanks for the tips. I am very careful with cheating. I have to be because for pedal A and Ab the cheat is not reliable and sometimes indeed messes up the lips. From G and lower I experience no ill effects. In fact the last couple of months pedal C has greatly improved (not with Teele btw)

Drifting off topic, but:

Once you've worked out how to get past the "pedal G wall" without shifting, it also becomes clear (at least it did to me) what mouthpiece size does and doesn't do for you. Increasing rim diameter does move the "tempted to shift" pedal point down, but really not by that much, and the same skill needs to be practiced after that point in either case. If you can make it down to G on anything, then something huge might get you down to an easy F, but the same problem is still there after that note (and in the meantime tone and endurance probably headed south).

In fact, it's just as easy to do that pedal stuff on a much smaller mouthpiece. The problem is elsewhere; if you're a IIIA like me, you can easily play the trigger and pedal range on a 1.5G... it's just that you have to use a mouthpiece placement waaay too low for your midrange, let alone the high stuff. (This is where Doug's recommendation above re middle Bb helps... or catches you out if you're up to no good.)

Instead, I suspect everyone needs the smallest possible rim on which they can comfortably play IGSOY and then immediately smack a ff trigger low C. With pivot, sure, but without repositioning the rim relative to upper and lower lips. (This may, of course, still be quite a large rim.) But don't be tempted to make this decision on the basis of pedals proper... you're going to have to fix the same stuff regardless.

This might not be true, or maybe everyone else has already worked this out... but various stuff seemed to click into place for me relatively recently, so it might be of interest to someone

With loud playing withhout shift I tend to double buzz from pedal G onwards. I have a 115 rim, mainly for an easy connect from middle to high register. With smaller rims I tend to miss octave jumps up etc…

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 12:27 am Two opposite possibilities that I call shifting:

When you let the mouthpiece drift to a lower position on your top lip to get low notes, usually accompanied by opening your mouth a lot.

When you completely change your mouthpiece placement to get low notes, usually raising the placement.

Or a combination of both, first one and then the other as you descend.

In either case you have to reposition the mouthpiece (again) to get back to normal range.

Phil Teele's approach was to use a great amount of repetition to train your chops to do the slow vibration of low notes without shifting at all.

Alan Raph's video is sometimes mentioned here, where he advocates the "raised embouchure" for the bottom notes.

Most players hit a wall around pedal G and have to make some change to get past it. The quick way is to shift. The problem with that is you never learn how to do it without shifting. It is possible, but it takes longer to learn. That's what I teach and I consider it better in the long term. It incorporates the entire range into one mouthpiece placement instead of multiple placements.

Okay, just cause I’ve been working on getting a good embouchure and I’ve been able to work through my partials through my register, and I’ve been able to play from pedal F through high Bb without moving the mouthpiece on my upper lip. However my lower jaw moves slightly or down between my extreme registers. Is that considered shifting? The difference is almost unnoticeable when I record myself playing through two given partials, but more noticeable flexing through my entire working range.

If the mouthpiece doesn't change position on the skin of your lips, I probably wouldn't call it a shift.
However I haven't seen you play.

And then there’s this (Jim Markey):

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 3:36 pm And then there’s this (Jim Markey):

Interesting. Like J. Markey I've also noticed people with thin lips have stronger extreme pedal-registers without a need of a shift.

With my own playing I've noticed some improvement I have normal lips and now can I play down to pedal D without a shift. It did help to get a Laskey 93D. This m-piece has a larger rim than I usually play when I'm on bass. To play a loud pedal D I still need to shift. I do the more odd variant of the shift that J.Markey talks about, I move my mouthpiece down. It works for me.

/Tom

I believe that when practising PT it should be with no shifts, even whith very weak sound, or no sound at all. But also practise shifts so you can use it when you need. You do what you have to do.

YouTube has Phil explaining days 1, 2, 4 and 5, but not day 3. Anyone care to explain what is going on in day 3 or, even better, post a short video demonstration? (Or, in the event I’ve missed them, point me in the right direction).

I don't have my copy at hand, but I think day 3 is a rest day. Phil suggests playing some jazz.

(edit) My mistake, that was day 4.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 4:17 pm YouTube has Phil explaining days 1, 2, 4 and 5, but not day 3.

Day 3 is included in this playlist:

Excellent. Thank you. That was very helpful.

Thanks to everyone who's contributing to this interesting thread.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 8:42 am And THIS

is "middle Bb" where you should start your day.

Doug, do you advocate that we bass trombonists should also start the day on middle Bb?

Thank you.

Certainly Doug's experience and opinion is much more relevant than mine, however:
On bass I typically start on the middle F, but very quickly extend up and down.
On tenor I normally start on that middle Bb, on alto often on the Eb above.
In my opinion this sets a kind of logical center to the range that is most relevant and kind of forces you to get a proper center.

Yes I am addressing that comment to bass trombonists... in this thread that is about bass trombone.
F is good too, if you had had been doing it all along.
I think bass trombonists in general make a big mistake always starting low.

Hello everyone.

I agree with Doug Elliott .

In my opinion , we have to consider that a Bach 16 and a Bach 50 are basically the same horn , because they are in the same key and they have the partials in the same pitch . Bass trombone have a larger bore and is played with a big mpc , of course , that make easier to achieve a full dark sound in the low range , but a middle Bb or a pedal Bb are in the same order on both horns.

So , to me ,"bass" trombonist should play in a range very similar to a "tenor" trombonist , expecially in the warm- up routine . Personally , when I play a Bb pedal in my warm-up , I have already played a F above the staff , and when I play a pedal F I have already played a high Bb .

I think that playing very low from the beginning of the day can results in a weak , uncentered tone , and could affect the embouchure and the general endurance as well as intonation .

Of corse , being bass trombonists , we spend a lot of time also in the low and pedal range , but we have to practice a lot in medium , medium high , and high range too .

This is my personal point of wiew . For these reasons I think that starting the day as indicated by Phil Teele , with hundreds of pedals and low tones , could be very detrimental for the chops . But , again , that' s my point of wiew !

Regards
Giancarlo

I don't actually know... did he intend to start the day that way, or after a different sort of warmup or start?

IIRC, Teele’s routine in his book starts out with low long tones. I believe that’s what he intended, but I’m not a Teele expert (I neither studied with him nor with anyone who studied with him). There are a couple of videos out there of Phil leading a group of bass trombonists in his warm-up procedures. (One of them sounds like a squadron of B-17’s or B-29’s.)

Personal opinion: the couple of times I’ve done Teele’s routine as intended, I found it more helpful to start with something other than long, low tones at forte or fortissimo. For me, starting as written led to swelling and stiffness. Yes, that gradually went away as I continued to practice them, but when I returned to them in later years, I started with mouthpiece buzzing and some mf or mp middle register slurs and gentle glissandos, which were more helpful. YMMV.

It makes sense to me to begin the day with a gentle warm up before tackling the Teeles. Afterwards, a break before working on other materials also makes sense.

In the book, Phil says he warms up before doing what's printed.

Hii folks.

In the book , pag 2 , there is a warm-up : 10 pedal Bb , 10 pedal A , 10 pedal F , 10 pedal E , 10 pedal D , 10 pedal C .
Then follows the routines of day one , etc .
I have a "illegal" copy , maybe something is incorrect..

It seems to me that he talk about this "pedals' warm-up" also in this video:


Regards
Giancarlo

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 1:41 pm 35 years ago, I used to do them almost every day.

My book says "Copyright 2001". Word-of-mouth before that?

Playing those every day, it just seemed like 35 years.

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:37 pm

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 1:41 pm 35 years ago, I used to do them almost every day.

My book says "Copyright 2001". Word-of-mouth before that?

Not in my case. I got a Xerox copy of hand-written pages from one of the guys in the Toshiko Akiyoshi and Lew Tabackin Big Band when they came to visit my college Humboldt State back in the early ‘80s. Phil Teele didn’t do the workshop/master class—he was out playing long tones in the redwood forest. I think Bruce Fowler or maybe Bruce Paulson did the workshop and handed them out.

I wasn’t playing bass when I first got the pages, but I kept them and started using when I was captured by the dark side. I lost them a long time ago… probably lent them to a fellow student.

I remember having photocopied pages that I probably got from someone on the old Trombone-L back in the day.

GGJazz wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 10:42 am
I agree with Doug Elliott .

... we have to consider that a Bach 16 and a Bach 50 are basically the same horn , because they are in the same key and they have the partials in the same pitch ...

Doug, thank you for your reply. Giancarlo, thanks to you too - this explanation makes a lot of sense to me.