TromboneChat

Back when I studied, nowadays in my teaching, but also in many talks with colleagues and friends, I seem to never hear Urbie Green being mentioned. Usually the jazz trombone tradition is somewhat built like that: JJ Johnson first (yeah, Teagarden, Ory, Young and everyone pre-JJ also not being mentioned), then Curtis Fuller (usually with Blue Train or Jazz Messengers albums), if you're lucky a bit of Slide Hampton and then it's basically Carl and Frank only from there.

The first person who mentioned Urbie Green to me in a lesson has been Jiggs Whigham. I always got the feeling that Urbie had a way bigger reputation and importance for jazz trombone than it is taught over here in Germany or than what seems to be common sense. To me his style is absolutely unique, but due to above mentioned reasons I don't really know that much. So, do you have any listening recommendations for Urbie Green? Everything's appreciated, thanks!

The great Ian McDougall (lead trombone of 'Boss Brass' back in its heyday) would say 'listen to Urbie Green'.

I think that you can hear a lot of 'Urbie' in Ian's own trombone playing and soloing. In fact, Ian McDougall should be on the list of jazz trombone players who really developed a sound and style of his own. His style, one could say, was based on great 'classical technique' honed by playing lots of fast Kopprasch, Bach, etc. along with playing the trombone 'like a trombone'....not trying to emulate sax or trumpet players. Just like Urbie Green.

So, in addition to listening to Urbie Green, please listen to some Ian McDougall!

There are a lot of YouTube links to Ian playing with the Boss Brass, and there are some great links to Urbie Green in there as well.

It's interesting to listen to recordings of Urbie and J.J. in their primes back to back. J.J. was clearly a more accomplished bebop player - harmonically adventurous, seeking in the ways that Coltrane and Miles and Bird and Dizzy and Sonny Rollins (LOVE J.J. in Rollins' band) were - but he did not have the ease of tone production and range that Urbie had. It sounds harder for J.J.

I sincerely don't mean that as a dig or criticism of either of them. I listen to them for different reasons and enjoy them both immensely.

I grew up in California, and I knew about Urbie Green from an early age. He was my first real trombone "crush." When I was about 10 years old, my father brought home two albums, both featuring some guy named Urbie Green with 21 of his trombonist friends. I was blown away. I spent hours a day trying to play along with the records and imitate Urbie Green.

Yeah, we heard of him.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 12:21 pm It's interesting to listen to recordings of Urbie and J.J. in their primes back to back. J.J. was clearly a more accomplished bebop player - harmonically adventurous, seeking in the ways that Coltrane and Miles and Bird and Dizzy and Sonny Rollins (LOVE J.J. in Rollins' band) were - but he did not have the ease of tone production and range that Urbie had. It sounds harder for J.J.

I sincerely don't mean that as a dig or criticism of either of them. I listen to them for different reasons and enjoy them both immensely.

I absolutely feel the same way about comparing JJ and Urbie. Maybe JJ was somewhat the predecessor for the guys who were stretching harmony even further a little later, like Slide Hampton. Although all those guys were born around the same time.
On the other side, Urbie was the predecessor (maybe developing Dorseys style?) for the guys like Bill Watrous, Carl Fontana... Like players with technical brilliance in both, up tempo and sweet style music.
Not sure if this is at all correct of course.

Don't know about J.J. recordings with Sonny Rollins! Can you give me a hint on those albums?

Also which albums would be considered Urbie's prime? 21 Trombones and around that?

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 1:17 pm I grew up in California, and I knew about Urbie Green from an early age. He was my first real trombone "crush." Before him, I kinda liked old recordings of Tommy Dorsey and Jack Teagarden, but only casually. When I was about 10 years old, my father brought home two albums, both featuring some guy named Urbie Green with 21 of his trombonist friends. I was blown away. I spent hours a day trying to play along with the records and imitate Urbie Green.

....

Those are great stories! Would you consider 21 Trombones your favorite Urbie Green record nowadays?

Cmillar wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 10:30 am The great Ian McDougall (lead trombone of 'Boss Brass' back in its heyday) would say 'listen to Urbie Green'.

I think that you can hear a lot of 'Urbie' in Ian's own trombone playing and soloing. In fact, Ian McDougall should be on the list of jazz trombone players who really developed a sound and style of his own. His style, one could say, was based on great 'classical technique' honed by playing lots of fast Kopprasch, Bach, etc. along with playing the trombone 'like a trombone'....not trying to emulate sax or trumpet players. Just like Urbie Green.

So, in addition to listening to Urbie Green, please listen to some Ian McDougall!

There are a lot of YouTube links to Ian playing with the Boss Brass, and there are some great links to Urbie Green in there as well.

I've heard of Ian, but I have no recordings in my ears. Will make sure to check something out!

EriKon wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 2:31 pm Don't know about J.J. recordings with Sonny Rollins! Can you give me a hint on those albums?

I have a Blue Note CD called Sonny Rollins Vol. 2

Hi everyone .

In my opinion , there are some reasons that explains why musicians as J. J. Johnson are mentioned as more important in the history of jazz .

It is not a matter of range or speed , ecc ; to me , J. J. Johnson have a perfect way to build the musical phrase , a very strong rhytmic feel , a general " fantasy" about the jazz playing approach , that is not heard in anyone else . Every note is like "carved in the stone": in his solos , there are nothing of unclear , from a musical point of wiew .This is a pretty unique quality . You can take his solos , and play it in all keys you choose : every phrase will be playable and will work , because is not trombone-related , but music-related .

For this reason , i think , non-trombonist jazz musicians knows and love him . Studying his solos can be useful to everyone (piano players as well as saxophone players ) to learn how to improvise .

His masterity can be confirmed also by looking at his collaborations : J. J. played and recorded with the giants of Jazz , like Charlie Parker , Miles Davis , Dizzy Gillespie , Stan Getz , Sonny Stitt , Sonny Rollins , Count Basie , Joe Henderson , etc etc .

Here the link about the recording with Sonny Rollins


Of course , I love Urbie Green . I found him a unique talented musician . A giant . I think that every jazz trombone players have to take care of his playing , listening him and studying his solos .

Here one of my favourite of him : Triste


Others jazz trombone players are a bit undervalued . Come to my mind Jack Jenney , to me the most lyrical of all times

Here Jack Jenney playing Sterdust


A truly great jazz musician ( in activity ) , not always mentioned , is John Allred :
Listen to his take of Rosetta :



Regards
Giancarlo

Of course JJ Johnson is more well regarded as a jazzer than Urbie Green is. JJ is a beboper through and through. Urbie is a commercial trombonist who plays jazz as part of that gig, like most commercial trombonists. Kind of an apples and Buicks comparison.

Hello all .

Well , the OP was wondering why Urbie Green was not mentioned so much into jazz trombone tradition . Mine was not a comparison but my personal explanation of the question ..

Anyway , I found that to define Urbie Green as a "commercial trombonist who plays jazz as part of that gig " is a bit reductive .

Just listen to his take of "Swing that Music " , with the Bobby Hackett sextet : to me , this is not just a commercial player who is playing jazz .. (trbn solo around 01:34)


Here he is playing You ' ve changed : great jazz feel !



Regards
Giancarlo

There's a lot of Urbie in John Allred's playing.

I grew up hearing Urbie a lot, both records and live and he's definitely a major influence.

I remember the first time I sat next to John Allred. All I could think was "damn... this is how it's done."

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 11:05 pm There's a lot of Urbie in John Allred's playing.

I grew up hearing Urbie a lot, both records and live and he's definitely a major influence.

100% agreed. Just recently listened to Urbie's rendition of 'On The Street Where You Live' and there are so many lines in there that I've heard in John Allred solos.

Interesting to hear that it's been a big influence in your playing as well. I haven't thought about that but it makes sense when I listen to some of your recordings

Talking about this record, Urbie plays insanely good. You can hear where Allred got his inspiration:


What are considered to be some Urbie Green classic albums or recordings (except for 21 Trombones)? Or personal favorites?

For me, the two volumes of Persuasive Trombone are his best, though if we're only sending one track into space it's Ana Luiza from Big Beautiful Band. Truly perfect.

But these are all in the commercial realm, hence the influence on trombonists, but less presence in the "academic chronology"

...

There's always going to be an interesting tension between genre/school-specific histories and instrumental/technique histories. To make a "mostly serious" point... obviously the musical language and intent is wholly different, but at a purely technical level I don't think there's anything in Rosolino that Teagarden wasn't doing with a better tone decades earlier.

(And what about, say, Vic Dickenson? Staggeringly beautiful, but playing an altogether different game. That world really doesn't get near the syllabus these days... technically, too easy... musically, too hard?)

Of course Urbie Greene is a jazz musician. Only he stylistically refers not to bebop, but to traditional jazz. Traditional jazz (dixieland, swing) is not considered serious music by jazz critics and journalists. They worship bebop and subsequent jazz styles. Therefore, Green, Allred and other similar trombonists, despite their amazing virtuosity, are not mentioned in any “lists of the best trombonists.”
JJ was the ultimate beboper. He was not a virtuoso like Greene, but he was regularly included in "best trombonist lists" and often won "best trombonist of the year", even in years when he was not recording.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:50 pm For me, the two volumes of Persuasive Trombone are his best, though if we're only sending one track into space it's Ana Luiza from Big Beautiful Band. Truly perfect.

But these are all in the commercial realm, hence the influence on trombonists, but less presence in the "academic chronology"

...

There's always going to be an interesting tension between genre/school-specific histories and instrumental/technique histories. To make a "mostly serious" point... obviously the musical language and intent is wholly different, but at a purely technical level I don't think there's anything in Rosolino that Teagarden wasn't doing with a better tone decades earlier.

(And what about, say, Vic Dickenson? Staggeringly beautiful, but playing an altogether different game. That world really doesn't get near the syllabus these days... technically, too easy... musically, too hard?)

I mean, talking about left out players in jazz academics, as I already mentioned earlier, even Teagarden isn't really mentioned over here. And talking about innovation, I haven't had a teacher who told me about Albert Mangelsdorff as well (although I live in Germany) or taught me some of those approaches/techniques. Maybe this is better in US tho. And of course, you can also learn a lot from studying non-trombone players as well, which seems to be a bigger thing over here, at least from what I experienced.

There are surely a lot of really great players, like first line of players, who are barely mentioned over here. Jimmy Cleveland would be another example.

But I feel like Urbie Green definitely should be mentioned and people should listen to him, because there are barely any players around anymore (and I'm pretty sure even less in Europe than in US) who have this kind of approach in their playing, not even a bit.

Have always loved the album Urbie did called 'The Fox'. (CTI 1976K)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_( ... een_album)


It really shows his versatility and the way he plays 'what's musical for the musical material'.
The Stevie Wonder tune 'Another Star' is beautiful. Not a lot of soloing, but check out his personal sound on this tune!

Hi all.

When I was 16 I bought a record named "The lyrical language of Urbie Green" (that was the first time I discovered Urbie' playing) .

I still like it a lot ! Truly Jazz music .


This was the first tune :" Mutation"


Regards
Giancarlo

Hello again.

Searchig on YouTube , I found this beautyful Urbie Green' album , around 1955 :"Blues and other shades of Green"


Interesting that he is playing both slide and valve trombone in there.

Regards
Giancarlo

And this is the album that made Bill Watrous get serious (interview):

An observation and a story:

I don't have perfect pitch, but usually when I listen to trombone recordings I can pretty much tell within a half step or so what key they are playing in. I think I hear the register, partial breaks, etc. Whenever I check in on an Urbie Green recording I'm way off; he's often about a fourth higher than I thought.

When I was a student I played with my school big band at the IAJE (now JEN) conference in Boston, and a couple of friends and I went to a class given by Urbie. Somebody asked him how he went about developing the lustrous tone he was so well known for. He looked sort of puzzled and said something along the lines of "that's just the sound I hear."

I was talking with Randy Purcell one day (I think that I was 13 or at the time) and he said:
Man, you gotta listen to that intro to Urbie's 'At Last'
Then it's all gravy...



Albums:
East Coast Jazz Vol. 6 - yes (Green Dolphin Street anyone?)
Let's Face The Music and Dance - is a favorite
The Persuasive Trombone of Urbie Green - listen to it then make your own decision
Senor Blues - absolutely!
The Fox - it's cool but not my favorite
We are all kind of obligated to listen to the 21 Trombones stuff (I personally love it but understand the cheesy factor)
Green Power - is solid, but sounds kinda '70'sish
Sea Jam Blues - not my favorite
Just Friends - not the best but not a bad listen

Many over here in the US dismiss him as just a player, not an innovator.

Especially bandleaders that don't play trombone.
If anyone else knows of some interesting albums let me know!

thanks
Jim

My favourite is “Let’s face the music and dance”
Some of the most controlled phenomenal playing on record.

As a young bloke learning mainly bass trombone, I listened to George Roberts. Someone said " Urbie Green, but down an octave, or 2". I was like, who the hell is Urbie Green?
I was given a recording of 21 trombones, I still have it 35+ years later.
George & Urbie were my 1st exposure to non big band trombonists, and to be honest, I prefer them to later players.

The best guy to listen to for lead and section style is Urbie in the Third Herd, seldomly heard. That is, unless one can finagle a seat next to Jack Redmond.

I got to see Urbie play with Bill Watrous at a Jazz festival in Columbia, SC about 30 years ago. That was great. And when I was a kid, his brother Jack lived in my hometown, although I never met him or knew much about him.

Urbie Green was the first trombonist whose name I knew. I think I bought an album called Urbie Green’s Green Machine. I first noticed him listening to the trombone solo on Billie Holiday’s You Don’t Know What Love Is (1959) and wondering Who IS that?

This could all be wrong. 40 years ago.

Fidbone wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:42 am My favourite is “Let’s face the music and dance”
Some of the most controlled phenomenal playing on record.

Agreed! Urbie's playing on that album is stupendous. You can listen to a lot of trombone players, and think, wow, that player can play fast, or this player has some clever jazz licks, or another player has a wonderful orchestral tone, or someone else has high chops of steel.

But Urbie's playing, in the era when "Let's Face the Music and Dance" was recorded, was so polished, so effortless sounding, so sweet. I've heard some mighty fine playing, but NO ONE ELSE sounds quite like that. Just Urbie.