TromboneChat

There are some things we can only dismiss with a hand wave and a "well, it was a different time" when we find some past eminence has engaged in them.

Deeds like panda hunting, blackface and... playing the horn with vibrato.




Read more about Lucien Thévet (1914 – 2007)


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Those old Russian/Soviet orchestra recordings also have lots of horn vibrato. It's part of the charm!

The French horn vibrato tradition goes way back to their...unique...way of playing hunting horns.

Sounds good to me!

Finetales wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 11:47 am The French horn vibrato tradition goes way back to their...unique...way of playing hunting horns.

Love it. Were I a wild boar (or a panda) I'd be suitably terrified.

The old, unique French style of playing, played on a cor à piston.

I have an old LP somewhere of French conservatoire musicians playing Renaissance music in that same French style. VERY different. At times, it’s hard to tell the difference between horns and trombones.

Finetales wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 11:47 am Those old Russian/Soviet orchestra recordings also have lots of horn vibrato. It's part of the charm!

The French horn vibrato tradition goes way back to their...unique...way of playing hunting horns.

I like this better than the first video from Decca. It is crazy that the entire ensemble is together on that wild vibrato. The vibrato pulse is on the triplet. Totally intentional, beautiful, and weird, and I had to listen to the whole thing. The first solo almost is trilling some of the partials. That first solo is actually ridiculous, there are even hints of middle eastern or Indian ornamentation on it.

Would have been awesome in person.

First video is uncontrolled and gross. Very similar to opera singers from that same time.

I have a 1958 Monitor monaural LP (MC2023) that incorporates the Schumann Concerto [Konzertstück] for Four Horns & Orchestra in F Major, Op. 86, performed by the State Radio Orchestra of the USSR. (Allegedly the "First Recording.") The horns' vibrato is so intense, my house shakes like we're having a Richter Scale 5 earthquake!

(Side One of the LP is the Schumann Cello Concerto performed by Mstislav Rostropovich with The Moscow Philharmonic.)

Hi all.

Lucien Thevet (1914/2007) , the first' video soloist , was a french horn legend ..

At 23 he was principal/solo french horn with the Paris Radio Orchestra ; from 1941 to 1974 he was principal/solo french horn with l' Orchestre de l' Opera National de Paris ; he played under conductors as Bruno Walter ; he recorded Bach' Brandemburg Concerts conducted by Pablo Casals ; composers as H. Tomasi and P. M. Du Bois dedicated works to him ; ecc , ecc .

He played in a style that you may not like , and which -of course- was not adopted by all french horn' players in the world ; but he was still a great musician , an exponent of the French School .

In my opinion , it' s really strange to want criticize things that were beautiful in the past , but which today are obviously too particular for our taste .

I do not think nowadays anyone would wear frock coat ; but in the past it was a truly elegant item of clothing .

Another Lucien Thevet ' take : Pavane puor une enfante defunte ( M. Ravel)


Regards
Giancarlo

The use of vibrato on French horn is becoming more common worldwide, not less. It used to only be heard mostly in France and East European countries like Russia, East Germany and Czechoslovakia. Now, it is fairly common even in the US and Great Britain.

FWIW the Mozart horn Concerto recording didn't seem strange or untasteful to me. Vibrato suits it.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 7:35 pm FWIW the Mozart horn Concerto recording didn't seem strange or untasteful to me. Vibrato suits it.

I agree. That’s why I posted it!

Another element of Thévet's sound is his right hand position which puts him more in the camp of the hunting horns.

This open bell isn't taught today, except as an explicitly-called-for effect.
Lucien Thévet

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 12:57 pm

Sounds good to me!

Yes, that does sound better.

I think the fact that he's doing about 5% of the vibrato might be 95% of the reason it sounds better. It is such a small vibrato that I think many people wouldn't even notice it if it wasn't pointed out. It has a nervous quality to it that I'm not entirely fond of. It is not a singing vibrato, although I haven't heard his slow movement.

But it is clearly a different creature than what Monsieur Thévet was doing. Barely in the same category.

GGJazz wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 6:31 pm In my opinion , it' s really strange to want criticize things that were beautiful in the past, but which today are obviously too particular for our taste .

That is how taste evolves. We recognize that something has gone overboard, discuss it, and chart a new course.

That's how we got rid of bell-bottom pants... and prevent them from coming back.

SteveM wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 7:28 pm The use of vibrato on French horn is becoming more common worldwide, not less... Now, it is fairly common even in the US and Great Britain.

People say that but... in 30 years of concert-going I've not heard anyone do it in live performance. And certainly not the ultra-wide mariachi style.

When writers say "Lucien Thévet was the last of the horn players of the traditional French school," that strongly implies that even the French don't do it like the French anymore.

That right hand grip is similar to the Vienna horn grip, though that is a bit further into the bell.

Hi everyone.

Hi Robcat2075 !

To me , taste just changes , it does not evolves . And things change because time passes , and we are always looking for something new and different ; not necessarily better ..

I do not think that Lucien Thevet and the old French School went "overboard" ; they simply played in their own personal way . And , to me , to affirm that " there are some things that we can only dismiss with a hand wave" , is not a very kind expression , in my opinion ...

Regards
Giancarlo

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 4:46 pm
That's how we got rid of bell-bottom pants... and prevent them from coming back.

Indeed!

On another note…I would agree that taste does evolve…which is evident in how music evolves…as tastes change, music changes to suit the taste of the current culture in a given genre. It is an evolution of sound…

Changing tastes don’t erase the past, but they do shape how we view it. It’s quite alright to appreciate past music…but realistically…it ebbs and flows given popularity…

This style of horn playing is very unique, and peculiar to late 19th-early 20th century French, Russian, and eastern European playing. I’ll leave the question “why they chose to use a wide and fast vibrato” to a music historian. But if we stop a moment and think about history—the highly centralized nature of France and French politics—and the way art and society/culture react and respond to each other—French colonialism, the give-and-take between Imperial Russia and France, etc.—then we get an idea about how this developed.

***

When I first heard this style many years ago (see above), I thought it sounded kind of like Tommy Dorsey or Glenn Miller. The width of the vibrato is very different, though. This is just a guess, but perhaps one reason why some people don’t like it is it sounds like a ‘40’s big band soloist plopped into the middle of an orchestra.

To me, it’s neither good nor bad. Yes, it’s different, and unfamiliar. But I would ask people to be curious, and allow the attraction to the strange and unfamiliar to widen your eyes and ears. (A complaint: the current modern American style of playing, especially orchestral trombone and trumpet playing, has infected and crowded out most of the rest of orchestral style. Personally, I think it’s a shame we don’t hear national styles in modern, contemporary performances.)

De gustibus non est disputandum.