TromboneChat

I'm not an equipment hound, and I've always just grabbed stuff that works for others and thought, "it's not the equipment it's the player, so I should be able to play anything that works for others." So now I need a new mouthpiece but because of my philosophy I find that I don't know the first thing about what to look for. Help a gal out?

The problem is that on my small bore .509 horn it just always feels like I'm blowing through a straw compared to my .547 horn, and I'd like a freer feel within the limitations of the bore size, if I can. I'm playing a Bach 16M with a Bach 11C mouthpiece. (My "regular" axe is a Lindberg 88H .547 with a gold Marcencowicz Byron Peebles mouthpiece, which I like.) Most of my playing on the small bore horn is lead trombone and high range features and solos.

I'm looking for a mouthpiece for my small bore horn that will feel a little freer to blow, but won't sacrifice range, facility, intonation or sound quality. I've tried a Bach 7C and 6 1/2AL and neither of those do it for me. So, to prevent me from spending all my money buying 150 new mouthpieces and going mad trying to find a good one, can you kind folks direct me to something you think will work? I'm partial to Dennis Wick and Marcencowicz mouthpieces, so if there's something in those lines that you think I'll love, don't hold back!

Thanks.

Edited to add: Sorry if I'm misleading folks with this post. I'm not looking to solve problems with my playing. I don't need lessons. In my own completely unbiased opinion(!), I think I play okay. I'm just someone who has played on the same equipment for decades thinking about trying something new, and I'd like to narrow the range of what I look at to a sample size smaller than every mouthpiece on the planet. LOL!

My regular horn was a .547 King with a Bach 5G. I found a Bach 7 worked for me on small bore. What worked for me might not work for you. Doug Elliott can do a Skype evaluation and direct you where you need to go.

If you like Marcinkiewicz, you can order some from mouthpiece express. Returnable less a restocking fee. I liked their 11C on my 3B.

I’ll be the second to jump in and recommend Doug Elliott. After watching the William Lang videos, I tried an LT104/G/G8 (I had the parts already) and immediately found it preferable to the 5G and S51 mpcs I had been trying to make work on my .547. (Kind of ruined my ‘find a standard mpc and practice’ theory) With a G4 or E4 cup/shank the 104 works in my .525. I also found the 104/E4 works in my 2B and in my alto (although the Eb in the Rhenish is difficult for me on the 104 with the E4 or D3, and a Bach 11C or the Yam 48A seem to work better). But there you have it. One rim, 4 horns.

I had to look up the Marcencowicz Byron Peebles mouthpiece, I don't have that in my collection. It looks like it's a pretty big rim in the range of my 102.5 or 103, but I don't know the cup shape which could affect the size feel.
I would suggest trying my LT 102, C+, D3 for a .508 bore horn.
It will not feel like blowing through a straw. (And no restocking fee if you don't like it)

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:02 pm I also found the 104/E4 works in my 2B and in my alto

A much better choice would be a C+ cup with D2.5 for the 2B and a D alto shank for the alto. Actually the D2.5 would probably be OK on alto too.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

another + on Doug's suggestion.
Doug can make a rim fit your face, and everything else fit between the rim and the horn acoustically and fluidicly. Those are non-trivial tasks that Doug does better than anyone else I know.

Decades ago, in the Navy, I was switched from the bass chair in my fleet band to lead in a succesion of other bands. Giardinelli made me a tenor shank body to fit my #1 screw rim. I was able to play high F's all night long in the big-band gigs, but the sound was not exactly what I had in my head.

Around 10 years ago Doug put an SB108 rim on an SB C cup with C2 shank. THAT gave me the sound in my head on a NY Bach small bore!

There are too many good mouthpieces around. Strange we have difficulties to find one that fits our face. I have no mouthpiece that feel like blowing in a straw so can not help very much. A Bach 6 1/2 AL is a mouthpiece a lot of people like, personally I like smaller about the size of Bach 11C for my small bore. It's important to blow any mouthpiece efficient. All energy you put through the horn must be transformed to sound of else the blow is inefficient. I don't think any of us are 100% efficient, but it helps to think "my best sound" is when I best eliminate any inefficient details in my playing. The mouthpiece choice after this will be to find the one that helps most with this. For me different mouthpiece for different instrument and different contexts is best, because I want ro sound different when I change horn and/or style.

/Tom

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:06 pm I had to look up the Marcencowicz Byron Peebles mouthpiece, I don't have that in my collection. It looks like it's a pretty big rim in the range of my 102.5 or 103, but I don't know the cup shape which could affect the size feel.
I would suggest trying my LT 102, C+, D3 for a .508 bore horn.
It will not feel like blowing through a straw. (And no restocking fee if you don't like it)

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:02 pm I also found the 104/E4 works in my 2B and in my alto

A much better choice would be a C+ cup with D2.5 for the 2B and a D alto shank for the alto. Actually the D2.5 would probably be OK on alto too.

Wondering if I need one of those 2.5s for my 2B???

When I first started playing a small bore after acclimating to a bass I found I needed to reassess my approach. A small bore requires more finesse and less air. At the same time I found a Bach 4C, which was similar in rim to my symphonic mouthpiece but standard shank, seemed to fit me better. Once I stopped overblowing the small bore it got much easier to play.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 7:57 am When I first started playing a small bore after acclimating to a bass I found I needed to reassess my approach. A small bore requires more finesse and less air. At the same time I found a Bach 4C, which was similar in rim to my symphonic mouthpiece but standard shank, seemed to fit me better. Once I stopped overblowing the small bore it got much easier to play.

That's so true. I do think this is why people sometimes are uncomfortable with small equipment both mouthpiece and horn. Especially when they think they can not get the air through. Any horn must be played efficient and with finesse. I also had a Bach 4C for a while, but the rim was too much work for me, especially when I returned to it and I had to cover first in big bands, then I noticed I'm one of those who like small rims. I like large rims too but not for first parts and 4-5 hours dance gigs and delicate stuff. On symphonic equipment on the other hand I like mouthpieces to be at least Bach 5-ish to be able to cover the trigger notes as well as the top notes. I know people think that's small too. A 4G works for me too but then stamina is effected negatively, maybe if there are lots of rests and not too heavy and high parts, maybe I would use it for 2:nd in a symphony orchestra, because it has benefits too. I'm no weightlifter, and I only practice a couple of hours a day.

/Tom

Hi all .

I would suggest to Tbdana to give a try at Wedge mouthpieces .
I think the 100C can be interesting for him , being a mpc in between Bach 11C and 6,75C .
The specs : ID 1,00 inches (25,4 mm) ; throat can be .240 inches (6,1 mm) , or you can choose the larger one , .250 inches (6,35 mm) .

You can give a look to their website
https://wedgemouthpiece.com

The Wedge mpc have a particular oval shape , with a non- flat rim . To me , they are exceptional !

Regards
Giancarlo

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:06 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:02 pm I also found the 104/E4 works in my 2B and in my alto

A much better choice would be a C+ cup with D2.5 for the 2B and a D alto shank for the alto. Actually the D2.5 would probably be OK on alto too.

I was mistaken. I have my 104 rim on a LT C cup, C3 shank on my alto. Do you have a C3 alto shank? Would that work?

My alto backbore doesn't have a number, it's either just "alto" or "alto s" for the smaller taper that goes in farther. It's a different shape backbore designed to balance high and low better on an alto.

For the 2B, I haven't made a C2.5 yet, but I will soon.

https://www.librassco.com/tenor-trombone

My 475 or 510 would be good options.

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:21 pm I'm not an equipment hound, and I've always just grabbed stuff that works for others and thought, "it's not the equipment it's the player, so I should be able to play anything that works for others." So now I need a new mouthpiece but because of my philosophy I find that I don't know the first thing about what to look for. Help a gal out?

The problem is that on my small bore .509 horn it just always feels like I'm blowing through a straw, no matter how much I practice it. I'm playing a Bach 16M with a Bach 11C mouthpiece. My "regular" axe is a Lindberg 88H .547 with a gold Marcencowicz Byron Peebles mouthpiece, which I like. Most of my playing on the small bore horn is lead trombone and high range features and solos.

I'm looking for a mouthpiece for my small bore horn that will feel a little freer to blow, but won't sacrifice range, facility, intonation or sound quality. I've tried a Bach 7C and 6 1/2AL and neither of those do it for me. So, to prevent me from spending all my money buying 150 new mouthpieces and going mad trying to find a good one, can you kind folks direct me to something you think will work? I'm partial to Dennis Wick and Marcencowicz mouthpieces, so if there's something in those lines that you think I'll love, don't hold back!

Thanks.

Hi, you are the ideal person for which Doug Elliott can help you out.

I now use the same rim on both my King 2BSS and my Conn 88H.

The underparts are different, of course.

But, most importantly, I can make the easy switch from one horn to another and be ready to play and get in 'playing shape' on either horn much easier than when I used to use two different sized rims.....especially when Doug showed me how the smaller rim on a smaller horn was really hindering me for my particular facial makeup.

With the King 2B, I can have a nice open 'blow' that doesn't feel too constricted at all yet can get all the 'punch' a 2B is capable of delivering. And I can play the Conn 88H with confidence knowing that it sounds real good to an audience, which is what counts in the end.

Just get Doug to make the recommendations for you particular horn and needs.

You'll end up selling all your other mouthpieces, not get all caught up in the buying and selling of a million different pieces that might only work for you for a week or two, and then sleep easier at night.

(...the trouble with being a customer of Doug's is that we in turn cause him not to get any sleep because he's so busy between playing and making mouthpieces....it'll be on your conscience if you decide to give him any more business or not!)

Cmillar wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 9:42 am Hi, you are the ideal person for which Doug Elliott can help you out.

Well worth the time to contact Doug for advice. You'll be glad you did.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 1:24 pm

Cmillar wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 9:42 am Hi, you are the ideal person for which Doug Elliott can help you out.

Well worth the time to contact Doug for advice. You'll be glad you did.

Why? I don’t know him, but I’m aware that he has quite a following here. Why will I be glad I did? What can he do for me?

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 1:27 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 1:24 pm
Well worth the time to contact Doug for advice. You'll be glad you did.

Why? I don’t know him, but I’m aware that he has quite a following here. Why will I be glad I did? What can he do for me?

I guess you should consult with Doug for the same reason you go to a licensed physician for medical advice.

Doug has spent the last ~30+ years studying embouchures, understanding the interaction of embouchures with mouthpieces, teaching (in person and on line) about these topics, manufacturing trombone mouthpieces, and providing personal recommendations for mouthpieces (sometimes his own, sometimes pieces made by others) for hundreds of trombonists worldwide. I think it's no exaggeration to say that he's the leading authority on this subject - a true qualified professional! {And he's also a gigging professional trombonist!]

I'm willing to bet my old 12C or 6½AL that he'll recommend a mouthpiece that you'll be pleased with.

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 1:27 pm Why? I don’t know him, but I’m aware that he has quite a following here. Why will I be glad I did? What can he do for me?

Well, you've got plenty of people telling you that Doug's advice and equipment are both great, and he's already suggested a mpc spec and offered you free return if you don't like it. He's also an excellent teacher. So there's that.

The actual answer: if you want a traditional Bach-style spec (i.e. cup depth and rim diameter increasing more-or-less in tandem) then his stuff simply happens to be extremely well designed and well made... but if - like many people - you might be happier with a larger rim diameter just like you prefer on your large bore, coupled to a properly suitable cup and backbore design, then his designs offer all sorts of possibilities that didn't use to be available and for which there's still not much competition (and none with as many options). Historically in that size range there was the Bach 4C, which isn't great, and the Schilke 52, which is essentially a bad 6.5AL joined to a larger rim (nice contour, FWIW)... and that was it.

Just been playing my small bore setup from him... I haven't found anything nearly as easy to play, and there's no price to pay in sound for that ease.

But if you're boycotting products from Maryland, then just buy a Wick 7CS. It's a 1" (6.5AL diameter) rim, a cup that's just slightly deeper than a Bach C, and a throat and backbore that's a bit more open than the small Bachs but still efficient and easy up high. It'd be better than the options you've tried thus far, and if it replaced 12Cs as the small bore default a lot of people would probably be happier than they are now.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 1:44 pm
Doug has spent the last ~30+ years studying embouchures, understanding the interaction of embouchures with mouthpieces, teaching (in person and on line) about these topics, manufacturing trombone mouthpieces, and providing personal recommendations for mouthpieces (sometimes his own, sometimes pieces made by others) for hundreds of trombonists worldwide. I think it's no exaggeration to say that he's the leading authority on this subject - a true qualified professional! {And he's also a gigging professional trombonist!]

40+ years

Let’s see.

Asks for recommendations. Gets recommendations. Complains about recommendations.

Odd.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 4:07 pm Let’s see.

Asks for recommendations. Gets recommendations. Complains about recommendations.

Odd.

No, I've seen this lots of times. Usually in this case the requester has a specific solution in mind and if it's not confirmed by the answers they get defensive.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 4:27 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 4:07 pm Let’s see.

Asks for recommendations. Gets recommendations. Complains about recommendations.

Odd.

No, I've seen this lots of times. Usually in this case the requester has a specific solution in mind and if it's not confirmed by the answers they get defensive.

The internet sure is weird. SMH.

I neither complained, nor am I defensive. You folks are reading an awful lot into my question about why I should consult with Doug. I don't know him. I don't know anything about him. I never heard of him before coming onto this form. I never heard of him outside this forum. I asked why I should consult him. I'm not sure how that gets interpreted as complaining or defensive. I would think that most of you would ask why to consult with a person when you don't know that person.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 3:30 pm 40+ years

Clearly too old! LOL!

Okay, Doug, how do we "consult"?

OK, you want to know who I am.

I'm a trombonist in the Washington DC area.
I was in the Airmen of Note from 1989 to 1996, playing the jazz chair, 2nd trombone. After that I played lead trombone in the Artie Shaw band for for about 20 years.
Before that I was a student of Donald Reinhardt (in Philadelphia) for 10 years from 1975 to 1985, studying his Pivot System. I have been a regular contributor on TC and other forums for many years. At Reinhardt's request, I have taken up where he left off, teaching the mechanics of playing, which applies equally to all brass instruments.
I'm pretty well known in the trombone community because I design and manufacture my own line of 3-piece mouthpieces for all low brass, for the past 42 years, and they are used worldwide. I use my knowledge of embouchure mechanics to help players play better and choose the best mouthpiece for their particular situation.

If you want to check me out on YouTube, here are some examples:

Somebody transcribed my very first recorded solo with the Airmen of Note:


A solo in Japan with the Airmen of Note:


Quartet gig playing I'm Getting Sentimental:


An interview with me about mouthpieces:


I do lessons by Skype. I'm scheduling the next two days, the weekend, and next week.

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 1:27 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 1:24 pm



Well worth the time to contact Doug for advice. You'll be glad you did.

Why? I don’t know him, but I’m aware that he has quite a following here. Why will I be glad I did? What can he do for me?

As you can see from his post, Doug has been "around the block" a few times. I first met him at the New York Brass Conference For Scholarships in the early 1990s. He took a look at me and sold me a mouthpiece I used for the next 30 years on my bass trombone. I also switched to Elliott versions of the mouthpieces for my symphonic and small bore instruments and have been very happy with the results.

Doug's setups aren't cheap, about twice the cost of one of the trendy mouthpieces that seem to fill the Classifieds, but the modularity allows you to fine tune a basic setup to fit any instrument -- a lot less expensive than a pile of premium mouthpieces for each need.

While Doug makes excellent mouthpieces, he doesn't push them. He will suggest off-the-shelf mouthpieces if he thinks they will work; only pushing his system if you need something that is not standard.

The cost of a Skype session is well worth it.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 2:12 pm
...just buy a Wick 7CS. It's a 1" (6.5AL diameter) rim, a cup that's just slightly deeper than a Bach C, and a throat and backbore that's a bit more open than the small Bachs but still efficient and easy up high. It'd be better than the options you've tried thus far, and if it replaced 12Cs as the small bore default a lot of people would probably be happier than they are now.

This is actually helpful. Thanks.

Thanks, all. Just to clear a couple things up, I'm just looking to narrow my search to something less than every mouthpiece in the world. I'm not looking for lessons, or to solve a problem with my playing. I'm just someone who has played on the same mouthpiece for decades and am thinking of trying something new, but I don't know much about equipment having been satisfied with the same horns and same mouthpieces for many years.

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 3:24 pm I'm not looking for lessons, or to solve a problem with my playing.

Fair enough... you got the advice you got precisely because the phenomenon you describe is extremely common, and generally points in a direction where Doug's mouthpieces are the absolute best option out there. You're not the first person ever to have "typical" equipment on large tenor and/or bass that they find very comfortable, but to find most of the generic/"received wisdom" small bore options less suitable. A 16M is a fairly big small horn, and it shouldn't feel tight.

Also, granted, it's sometimes hard to judge tone on the interwebs, but if you're wondering who someone is...

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:21 pm I'm not an equipment hound, and I've always just grabbed stuff that works for others and thought, "it's not the equipment it's the player, so I should be able to play anything that works for others."

The problem with that approach is... You're not that other person.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 4:10 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:21 pm I'm not an equipment hound, and I've always just grabbed stuff that works for others and thought, "it's not the equipment it's the player, so I should be able to play anything that works for others."

The problem with that approach is... You're not that other person.

Honestly, I feel that I am that other person. We almost all are, in fact. I'm of the opinion that people have a tendency to blame equipment for problems that aren't related to the equipment. And, to be immodest only because you brought it up, I've played for decades at a pretty high level in a wide variety of professional situations. I can play anything anyone puts in front of me, on equipment played by thousands of others, and I play the entire instrument from top to bottom without difficulty, which to me says that I am indeed that "other person."

OMG, this whole discussion has gotten out of hand. I'm not asking because I have a problem. I don't. I just never experiment, and I was idly wondering if there might be a mouthpiece out there that feels as good as the one I've played successfully forever, but blows a little freer. I didn't want to start trying a bunch of different mouthpieces, so I asked if anyone might have a recommendation. That's all.

And with that I think I'm out of this thread. It has taken a turn toward the weird...

Well I did recommend ONE, not a bunch to try.

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 4:41 pm

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 4:10 pm
The problem with that approach is... You're not that other person.

Honestly, I feel that I am that other person. We almost all are, in fact.

You're perfectly entitled to your wrong opinion.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:06 pm I had to look up the Marcencowicz Byron Peebles mouthpiece, I don't have that in my collection. It looks like it's a pretty big rim in the range of my 102.5 or 103, but I don't know the cup shape which could affect the size feel.
I would suggest trying my LT 102, C+, D3 for a .508 bore horn.
It will not feel like blowing through a straw. (And no restocking fee if you don't like it)

For what it's worth, I do have a Marcinkiewicz ET1 "Byron Peebles" mouthpiece in my collection. Marcinkiewicz specs are hard to compare with, as you know. I measure this mouthpiece as having a Cup I.D. of ~25.5mm (1.004") [Compared to the Marc spec of 26.14mm/1.029"] and a Throat of only 6.76mm/0.266". This compares rather closely to the Schilke 51C4d that I obtained from Byron's personal collection after he retired [25.6mm/1.010" Cup I.D., 7.04mm/0.277" Throat]. Byron did not play very large mouthpieces; they were typical of his time.

Well, that escalated quickly... I guess you can't force people to find their luck

With all due respect to Doug Elliott who is certainly a great expert, player and mouthpiece maker, it is treated almost like burning a church when someone doesn't jump on that train. There are people who think differently and maybe simply want to learn about other options.

On the actual topic: Besides Doug's stuff the Wick 7c sounds like a good idea, but you could also just look around other 11c-ish options such as the Ferguson 11 which does feel a bit larger.

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:21 pm I'm looking for a mouthpiece for my small bore horn that will feel a little freer to blow, but won't sacrifice range, facility, intonation or sound quality. I've tried a Bach 7C and 6 1/2AL and neither of those do it for me. So, to prevent me from spending all my money buying 150 new mouthpieces and going mad trying to find a good one, can you kind folks direct me to something you think will work? I'm partial to Dennis Wick and Marcencowicz mouthpieces, so if there's something in those lines that you think I'll love, don't hold back!

I’ve played most of the best various pieces in the 7-11 size range (including lots of DE combos) on my Shires .508 and know what you mean.

The stand outs to me would be:
- Patrick BG5 (6 3/4 or slightly bigger sized rim, blows VERY free with a killer high range and fat, clear sound. Power lead piece)
- Yamaha Nils Langdren (similar in size to 6 3/4 pieces, very open throat and backbore for an open blow and fat funk sound, narrow, roundish rim some find uncomfortable, less of a lead piece compared to the BG5)
- Bach 6.5a (I have a MV version that is a perfect mix of 6.5 openness and low range, and the sweet 11c upper range)
- Warburton 9, 10, or 11 rim and M cup with a T3* or T4* shank (the M cup is about a typical C cup depth, and having control over the openness of the shank you can dial in the blow. 4* is very free blowing, and there’s even more open shanks if you desire!)
- Doug Elliot C+ or D cup setups in ST or MT series are worth a look too.

If you’re after something new that behaves in a typical small bore lead type manner but with the blow more like the 6.5 sized pieces, the Patrick BG5 would be my pick.

Ultimately, you do have to try a bunch of stuff out to see what works for you, because our sound concepts and way our chops operate in a particular horn differ from person to person.

Good luck!

The problem is that on my small bore .509 horn it just always feels like I'm blowing through a straw compared to my .547 horn, and I'd like a freer feel within the limitations of the bore size, if I can. I'm playing a Bach 16M with a Bach 11C mouthpiece. (My "regular" axe is a Lindberg 88H .547 with a gold Marcencowicz Byron Peebles mouthpiece, which I like.) Most of my playing on the small bore horn is lead trombone and high range features and solos.

I'm looking for a mouthpiece for my small bore horn that will feel a little freer to blow, but won't sacrifice range, facility, intonation or sound quality. I've tried a Bach 7C and 6 1/2AL and neither of those do it for me. So, to prevent me from spending all my money buying 150 new mouthpieces and going mad trying to find a good one, can you kind folks direct me to something you think will work? I'm partial to Dennis Wick and Marcencowicz mouthpieces, so if there's something in those lines that you think I'll love, don't hold back!

I've known quite a few people - and been that person myself - who noticed that I preferred the large shank pieces I had to the small shank ones. THe feeling of tightness or "blowing through a straw" for me turned out to be rim size. I actually play on pretty "tight" backbores/throats now and it feels very open because I'm on rim sizes that work really well for me. Unfortunately, a lot of manufacturers tend to scale down everything rather than just the cup depth, which is one reason why there is a predilection for people to gravitate to Doug's stuff. Very easy to dial in exactly what you need because of how flexible the rims are.

So that all said, I suspect you are exactly like many of us if you like the Byron Peebles piece and find that you want a "freer blow" w/o sacrificing range or flexibility. As best I can tell, the BP pieces is ~1.03" or perhaps 1.04" due to the shape on the rim size. The 7C is closer to a .98" and the 11C is .97" iirc. A difference of .06" seems pretty minor on paper, but definitely makes a huge difference.

I would suggest giving something in the 1.03" rim size a try. Doug's suggestion for his stuff is exactly what I'd try given these specs. I'd also try:

Greg Black 4C
Giddings E-1 (Small Shank) <- this one has a deepish cup so might not be ideal for this use case
Griego Artist 4A
Laskey Alessi 67 (if they sell in small shank)

I would recommend trying at least one of these options before going to a similar size already tied. Like I said, it's really common for people to be fine on smaller rim sizes and then try something with a larger rim size but an otherwise small underpart and think it's mana from heaven. But there are not a whole lot of people who make it. This is, to the best of my knowledge, a fairly exhaustive list. Jeff at Long Island Brass- who chimed in a little bit ago - also has a "chimera" line which is kind of in this vein and would also certainly be able to make something too. I have a few of his pieces and they're great - I would play them a lot more if I weren't spoiled on lexan rims.

The old addage is appropriate here once again:

"You can lead a dying horse to water, but it's up to the horse to actually drink it"

Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:26 am So that all said, I suspect you are exactly like many of us if you like the Byron Peebles piece and find that you want a "freer blow" w/o sacrificing range or flexibility. As best I can tell, the BP pieces is ~1.03" or perhaps 1.04" due to the shape on the rim size.
I would suggest giving something in the 1.03" rim size a try.

Matt,
Don't believe the published Marcinkiewicz mouthpiece specs. They're not wrong - they just measure Cup I.D.s differently than others (like Bach, Schilke, & Doug Elliott). I have a Marcinkiewicz ET1 "Byron Peebles" mouthpiece in my collection. I measure this mouthpiece (in a more "standard" way) as having a Cup I.D. of ~25.55mm (1.006") [Compared to the Marc spec of 26.14mm/1.029"] and a Throat of 6.76mm/0.266". [This compares rather closely to the Schilke 51C4d that I obtained from Byron's personal collection after he retired (25.6mm/1.010" Cup I.D., 7.04mm/0.277" Throat)]. Byron did not play very large mouthpieces; they were typical of his time.

I'm no expert on the Doug Elliott system, but if pressed into a corner, I might recommend as an open-blowing piece for a 0.509" bore Bach 16M:
LT 101 Rim (about the same ID as the Marcinkiewicz ET1 "Peebles")
LT D Cup (deeper and easier-blowing than a Bach 11C)
D3* Shank [updated version of D3 Shank]

(Of course the Cup & Rim could also be from the ST or MT series, but the OP is accustomed to larger Cups. )

I've never understood when people ask for a VERY SPECIFIC recommendation, but somehow don't like the answer they get. There's also the whole logic issue with having this mentality:

I've always just grabbed stuff that works for others and thought, "it's not the equipment it's the player, so I should be able to play anything that works for others.

But then asking for suggestions, disproving the entire concept. The whole reason that there ARE 150 different possible mouthpieces is because stuff that works for others does not always work for everyone else. For someone who wants a mouthpiece for a small bore horn that will "feel a little freer to blow, but won't sacrifice range, facility, intonation or sound quality.", I can think of no better answer than Doug Elliot's modular system.

And this is before touching the whole idea that it's very possible that the throat size isn't the problem.

You're right about Marcinkiewicz measuring differently, and the ultimate size feel depends greatly on how it goes from the inner edge down into the cup. But since I don't have a Byron Peebles model to measure myself, I don't know any of that.

I was putting the star on shanks to label my experimental backbores during the pandemic, but this year they just say 2023 with no star.

I think everyone could calm down a bit.