Old Holton Bass Mouthpiece

[TromboneWill]

I picked up Bass Trombone in 9th grade, and played it through 12th grade, and now that I'm leaving to go to college, I've found it hard to find a mouthpiece that works for me like the old holton mouthpiece did. When I got my new horn (Bach 50AF3), I was recommended to buy a Bach 6.5 AL for it, and me not knowing much about mouthpieces, bought it. It's too small for my liking, anything low is a struggle.
This brings me to the actual question, the mouthpiece I grew to love was a Holton mouthpiece, but the only markings on it said "181," and it was with an old Holton TR180. I've searched for it online to try and find specifications for it, and even just the mouthpiece by itself, but I've had no luck with it, so I hoped someone here might be able to help, anything would be appreciated.

[BGuttman]

Most bass trombones ship with a mouthpiece that is the size of a Bach 1 1/2 G. See if you can exchange the 6.5 AL for one.

[SimmonsTrombone]

Agree with Bruce. Or if you can't exchange it, get a Faxx 1.5G. That's a good, basic bass mouthpiece, play on it awhile, then work with your teacher to see if there's a better fit for you.

[WGWTR180]

Two things here:

1. Who in their right mind would suggest a 6 and 1/2AL for a Bach 50??????

2. That old Holton piece is more than likely, from what I remember, in the 1 and 1/2G size range. Both suggestions above are a good place to start.

[afugate]

Two things here:

1. Who in their right mind would suggest a 6 and 1/2AL for a Bach 50??????

Exactly.

I ran across a youngster who was struggling on bass trombone. Thin, pinched sound. Discovered she was playing on a 6 1/2AL because, "It's the only mouthpiece I can play a pedal note on." I showed her how to play down there without collapsing her embouchure. Took less than 30 minutes. Now she's making excellent progress on a 1 1/2G.

--Andy in OKC

[tbonesullivan]

Wow. Someone actually recommended a 6 1/2 AL for a bass trombone? Did they think it was a .547 bore tenor or something? That's just not a mouthpiece designed for that type of use.

[TromboneWill]

The person I got this Bass from was also the same person I bought my first tenor from ~7 years ago (family friend), they might've thought I was just moving to a Bass for the first time, when I've already had a few years of experience on it. They even recommended I buy an even smaller mouthpiece than the 6 1/2 AL down the line for playing higher if I can remember correctly, I think they called the 6 1/2 AL a good "mid-range" mouthpiece.

I do think I might keep the 6 1/2 AL, at least for a bit, as it works really well in my high range, but I am planning to go looking for a better mouthpiece today.

[elmsandr]

Wow. Someone actually recommended a 6 1/2 AL for a bass trombone? Did they think it was a .547 bore tenor or something? That's just not a mouthpiece designed for that type of use.

C’mon, it comes in a box labeled “bass trombone”.

Those of us here are probably in the 99%-ile even for people that would be in a position to recommend a mouthpiece. Store employees and even most school band directors will not be familiar with the sizing on trombone mouthpiece labels if they aren’t brass players. If somebody comes to you to get a sax mouthpiece and you see one that says alto or tenor, I’d expect us to match it to the size of the horn, not knowing what the “C star” means… I’d obviously tell the person that I have no idea what I’m doing there, but it does not seem as crazy as it probably should.

Cheers,
Andy

[Posaunus]

My wife was a music educator (and a very good one) - taught mostly elementary band and strings. She's an oboist, but (with a music education degree) can play (sort of) all the instruments. She could give advice on, or select for a student, violin or cello strings; clarinet, saxophone, oboe, or bassoon reeds. But as far as brass mouthpieces, she probably assumed that whatever came in the case was good enough. (Mostly in the 12C size range for elementary trombonists.) I doubt that she ever looked or asked the student what mouthpiece they played.

One would hope that a music store salesperson might be knowledgeable enough to help a customer select a mouthpiece - but I'm very skeptical that that's often the case.

[BGuttman]

Nowadays the music store employee would be great for selecting a gee-tar and probably little else.

[Posaunus]

Nowadays the music store employee would be great for selecting a gee-tar and probably little else.

Indeed. One should be careful about whom one consults for advice - whether it's trombone mouthpieces, health, financial, ...

Check bona fides!

[tbonesullivan]

Nowadays the music store employee would be great for selecting a gee-tar and probably little else.

I wouldn't trust them for that, at least with the big box stores, where they pretty much work on reverse commission entirely based on how much they sell.

[greenbean]

A 1.5-size mouthpiece is definitely the place to start (and maybe remain). I have extras to sell - Holton, Bach, and others. You can PM or email me if interested.

[ssking2b]

That Old Holton, Bass Trombone mouthpiece was something that shipped with a Holton TR 181. It was designed by Holton with Louis Van Haney, one of my teachers, and it was similar in size to a Bach 1 1/2 G, but with a little more V shaped cup.

[greenbean]

I had two, one marked “181” and one marked ”VH-BASS”. Same mouthpiece, I think. 1.5-ish

[modelerdc]

That Old Holton, Bass Trombone mouthpiece was something that shipped with a Holton TR 181. It was designed by Holton with Louis Van Haney, one of my teachers, and it was similar in size to a Bach 1 1/2 G, but with a little more V shaped cup

Yes, although I found the rim to be more comfy than the Bach 1.5, more like a 2G in curvature and width, and 1.5 in size.

[pwrjam]

I've also got a Holton Van Haney "181" mouthpiece. It's a great playing, if somewhat old fashioned bass trombone piece. I'm assuming you no longer have the original as it was with the school horn? Honestly my recommendation would be to scrounge Ebay for another one. They come up for sale once in a while. Barring that, I believe the closest mouthpiece I've played to it was a Marcinkiewicz bass piece. I can't remember, but it might have been a model 3?

[Fridge]

The Van Haney mouthpiece was between a 2 g and a 11/2 g. I used to have one. I played Van’s mouthpiece in the mid-late 70’s in a lesson. It was slightly smaller than my 11/2 g.

Fridge

[modelerdc]

I used to have a Giardinelli Symphony B. Not as well known as the Symphony T, it was my understanding that this was Van Haney's bass mouthpiece while the T was the tenor. It was about like a 2G with a wider comfy rim. Holton also used to make, before the 181 mouthpiece, a 1 1/2G sized mouthpice piece that was slightly larger than the 181, more like a 1 1/2 G but with bigger throat. I used to have one, I thought it played very well, can't remember if is was marked 1 1/2 or not.

[Doug Elliott]

Supposedly the Symphony T and Symphony B were the Van Haney models, but they actually had no real relationship to the Holton VH-Tenor and VH-Bass that Holton sold in the '70's. About the same rim sizes, but drastically different rim shape and cup.

I played on a VH-tenor for a short time in college but spent most of that time on a Symphony T, so I was very familiar with both. The VH-Tenor had a nice sound but was very difficult to have any accuracy on it. One of the worst mouthpieces I've ever used.

I suspect the Holton 181 was an earlier model before the VH-Bass existed. I don't think I have any Holton mouthpieces in my collection.

[Fridge]

I still have a Holton 11/2 g. Dave is correct. Much larger throat. It’s a good mouthpiece!

Fridge

[SimmonsTrombone]

I have a Holton TR-180 made in 1974 according to the serial number. I bought it new in 1983 still in the factory plastic. It came with a Van Haney bass mouthpiece. I tried it for a bit, didn't like it, and ordered a 1 1/2G.

[ssking2b]

Haney told me that the Giardinelli mouthpieces were copies of the copies he had made there of Remington's own personal mouthpieces. Haney gave me (in 1972) the VH bass and VH tenor before they were on the market for Holton. He said he thought Holton's reproductions of his personal copies of Remington's mouthpieces were much more faithful than the later Giardinelli mouthpieces that were marketed after he joined the NY Phil.

Personally, I agree with DE, in that I never liked either of them. I still have them in my paperweight collection for nostalgia's sake.

[WGWTR180]

Van Haney. Mr Haney was on Green Acres.

[blast]

I have some of the earlier Holton bass pieces....87 and 1 1/2G. They are very good.

[sf105]

@blast You tried that Holton mouthpiece, marked as a 1 1/2, that I have and didn't like it. Do you know which one it is?

[blast]

I don't remember that Steve. All mouthpieces vary. Some of those Holton pieces I like, others don't do it for me. Mine all have outer shapes like the Conn Remingtons.

[sf105]

It's one of those Remington shaped ones. It's very comfortable but I just haven't find the right horn to put it in. Also, the shank is slightly unusual.

[Doug Elliott]

Some Holtons had a receiver that was slightly bigger than standard. Sort of like King 4B's and Benges. Not as big as Conn shanks. So it's possible that some Holton mouthpieces had a matching shank.

[blast]

Doug is right about the shank...odd is the most accurate description.

[spencercarran]

Some Holtons had a receiver that was slightly bigger than standard. Sort of like King 4B's and Benges. Not as big as Conn shanks. So it's possible that some Holton mouthpieces had a matching shank.

Definitely true of my old VH-BASS mouthpiece. It was noticeably bigger than standard large shank mouthpieces, and fit into my Holton 180 more securely than regular large shank mouthpieces. Conn/Remington shank mouthpieces also fit pretty well.