TromboneChat

Hey, friends! I'm back with another weird question:

Aside from the general issues of dexterity with a contrabass trombone, has anyone attempted to use it as the bass voice in a brass quintet? I've found myself in a position where I'll more than likely be switching down to the lowest chair, and the question arose in my head. There's a (VERY) large chance I'll just use bass, but I figured it's worth a discussion to see what others have experimented with. Discuss!

I've played a few pieces for brass quintet that called for contra instead of tuba or bass trombone (and were well written). I didn't really like the way it felt from the tenor spot. I remember it feeling like there was a pretty big tonal gap between the bottom voice and the rest of the group in a way that isn't there with bass or f tuba. Like that is just wanted a bass to fill the gap between myself and the person playing contra, if that makes sense?

BUT I'd also be really curious if would feel different with a F contra. the other times have been with BBb and CC contras, so maybe a "smaller" one would work better?

Put simply, I just wouldn't want to hold up a contra that much.

Maybe for lit that was intended for a bass bone, F contra wouldn't be bad. And it depends on how powerful the rest of the quintet is. Personally, I'm at the point with my own quintet that I only want to hear bass tuba, but that's specific to my own group. I can imagine situations where that would work, but your Bb Bankelsangerlieder might not be one of them.

The regular Bass Trombone is a very good choice for a Brass Quintet - it seems to me that there is very little need to use a Contra. Nothing wrong with Tuba either, but there is a long, rich history of fine quintets with Bass Trombone - the American Brass Quintet, Annapolis come to mind. Sam Pilafian (sp?) used a Euphonium on some of the Empire Brass repertoire too. Sometimes a lighter instrument is nice. Depends on the player and the rest of the group as to what works best, but good players will always make it work.

Jim Scott

I've done it only once and it wasn't fun. You have to work far too hard to make it work because of the tonal gap between the tenor trombone and the contra, because of the sheer weight of the instrument (I had a BBb Mirafone at the time) and because sometimes it just really doesn't suit the music.

Let's face facts: the brass quintet as we know it started life as two cornetts and a trio of trombones, which eventually became two trumpets, a horn, a trombone, and a tuba. There's good reason why that combination works well - and also represents each member of the orchestral brass.

In summary, using the contra is too much like hard work.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:21 pm Put simply, I just wouldn't want to hold up a contra that much.

Bingo.

DJC0189 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 6:33 pm Discuss!

Don't put a square peg in a round, well labled hole.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:58 am

DJC0189 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 6:33 pm Discuss!

Don't put a square peg in a round, well labled hole.

https://youtu.be/6pDH66X3ClA

That's great

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 9:53 pm The regular Bass Trombone is a very good choice for a Brass Quintet - it seems to me that there is very little need to use a Contra. Nothing wrong with Tuba either, but there is a long, rich history of fine quintets with Bass Trombone - the American Brass Quintet, Annapolis come to mind. Sam Pilafian (sp?) used a Euphonium on some of the Empire Brass repertoire too. Sometimes a lighter instrument is nice. Depends on the player and the rest of the group as to what works best, but good players will always make it work.

Jim Scott

Speaking of the American Brass Quintet, I saw them recently at the University of Maryland. John Rojak sounded sooooo good! He made sound so easy.

On another note, there are recordings made by The Philharmonia Orchestra Brass Quintet doing Christmas songs. I believe the tuba player was using a smallish Eb. I really liked that sound for quintet. Of course, they're world-class musicians, but that size tuba really worked well.

OP, did you get a contrabass yet or are you still trying to have the forum justify it for you?

I guess I’ll be in the minority here…

I do use both contra and bass in a brass quintet. It depends what is being performed. I enjoy using the instrument in this setting.

Johnstad wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 10:54 am I guess I’ll be in the minority here…

I do use both contra and bass in a brass quintet. It depends what is being performed. I enjoy using the instrument in this setting.

Do you have a recording so we can hear it in context? Or do you know other contra quintet recordings?

I don’t have brass quintet recordings, but here are some chamber recordings…the Premru I performed on bass. The rest are on contra.

In a double brass quintet.

2020



2021

https://www.youtube.com/live/LYt3_WVQqHs?feature=share

Johnstad wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 9:34 pm In a double brass quintet.

2020



2021

https://www.youtube.com/live/LYt3_WVQqHs?feature=share

Sounds great! Thank's for the concert. I especially liked the arrangement of Three Kings, liked the sound of your contra
I now read in your profile it is a Kanstul contra? I really like their bass trombone, it also gives that clear distinct sound. To my ears that contra sound blend very well with the tuba. as well as with the tenors.

I really like this forum when I see a sharing post like this.
This is music. This is the way to go, what it should be, and what I want more of. Thanks again.

/Tom

Thanks for the comments, everyone! I appreciate the insights!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 10:54 am OP, did you get a contrabass yet or are you still trying to have the forum justify it for you?

Oh, I've got one already, just a cheap clone to get the job done. I would not use something as trivial as this "maybe" situation to justify that large of a purchase!

imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 4:14 am

Johnstad wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 9:34 pm In a double brass quintet.

2020



2021

https://www.youtube.com/live/LYt3_WVQqHs?feature=share

Sounds great! Thank's for the concert. I especially liked the arrangement of Three Kings, liked the sound of your contra
I now read in your profile it is a Kanstul contra? I really like their bass trombone, it also gives that clear distinct sound. To my ears that contra sound blend very well with the tuba. as well as with the tenors.

I really like this forum when I see a sharing post like this.
This is music. This is the way to go, what it should be, and what I want more of. Thanks again.

/Tom

You bet Tom!

Rrova wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 10:37 am

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 9:53 pm The regular Bass Trombone is a very good choice for a Brass Quintet - it seems to me that there is very little need to use a Contra. Nothing wrong with Tuba either, but there is a long, rich history of fine quintets with Bass Trombone - the American Brass Quintet, Annapolis come to mind. Sam Pilafian (sp?) used a Euphonium on some of the Empire Brass repertoire too. Sometimes a lighter instrument is nice. Depends on the player and the rest of the group as to what works best, but good players will always make it work.

Jim Scott

Speaking of the American Brass Quintet, I saw them recently at the University of Maryland. John Rojak sounded sooooo good! He made sound so easy.

On another note, there are recordings made by The Philharmonia Orchestra Brass Quintet doing Christmas songs. I believe the tuba player was using a smallish Eb. I really liked that sound for quintet. Of course, they're world-class musicians, but that size tuba really worked well.

I’m a real big fan of either Eb tuba or (even more radical) a small bore tenor and bass trombone in a quintet. The Eb and that trombone combo mix up the sound really well

Back to the main point though, as everyone else has said, that’s a lotta weight for not a lot of pay enough

Those examples are nice playing, but to me they make the point that use of a contra is very music specific. And the contra worked best when it was mixed with the tuba in a bigger group. It's not something you want in every tune, or every instrumentation. It works best in about 25% of those examples, to my ear. It worked best in the trio stuff when it was in the upper part of the range (notes a big tenor could play easily).

There's a reason the contrabass bassoon is not called for more often. That sharp cutting sound works better higher in the register. Down lower you want a more pillowy sound. Like a tuba. You can play a tuba with a little edge, but it's hard to play a contrabass trombone low and loud without the edge. Just my thought. I play enough bass bone to know how hard it is to keep it from being obnoxious when you don't want it to be. I just think there's a limit to what you can do with low trombone sounds, at a certain point an F tuba - even a small F tuba - is a better choice.