Embouchure/Air flow question.

[Trhtrbn]

I posted this in the mouthpiece section not knowing where it should be posted. I am 62 years old and I had stopped playing after losing my upper teeth after a bad motorcycle accident. I now have upper dentures and mistakenly believed my playing days were over and stopped for over 10 years, maybe more. A two or three months ago, the I saw a movie about Chet Baker and I thought I could play trumpet again, which I have not played since Jr. HS. I was mainly a tuba player in HS, the Army Band, Salvation Army Band, and local stuff for many years. I doubled bass trombone in jazz bands, as well. After not doing well on the trumpet I decided to try the tenor trombone. I seem to have a range from E1 below the bass clef staff to E4, forgive me if I am naming them incorrectly, in others words low E natural up a full 3 octaves on a straight small bore tenor. My question is a mechanical one, why is it I seem to play lower and higher on a Yamaha 45A (a Bach 12E equivalent) than a larger mouthpiece or a large bore horn? Is it my embouchure, my air flow, or both?

[Doug Elliott]

There are different embouchure types. Some play better and easier on small mouthpieces, and others on large mouthpieces. I'd have to see you play.

[Trhtrbn]

There are different embouchure types. Some play better and easier on small mouthpieces, and others on large mouthpieces. I'd have to see you play.

I have an instructor who is helping me on a personal level. I just wanted to get other opinions, I believe in finding other points of view and going with what ultimately works for me. The question is academic and more for my own edification on a scientific level than anything else. I have read several books on embouchure and have found more theories than a person could shake a stick at, lol. Just getting real world ideas, thanks.

[Trhtrbn]

I would like to say something that I truly hope is taken in the way I intend, just sharing a friendly opinion. Some of the responses I have received can seen extremely harsh if not down right rude. I understand that chatting and text can seem rude even if it is not intended to be. I was in high end air conditioning and refrigeration for over 40 years, the last 15 years I spent a lot of time training young people. I was taught and I applied the concept that the only stupid question is the one that is never asked. That being said, I only ask questions because I like to research all the possible angles of any subject and to me practical experience trumps intellectualism every time. I hope that anyone who reads my questions can appreciate that I am never being rude or mean in my comments at any time. Thank you to those who do respond.

[Vegasbound]

IMHO you should contact Doug directly and have a lesson with him, when Doug says “I would have to see you play” that is his way of saying I can help you if you want me too. (Sorry Doug if I am putting words in your mouth)

Doug has helped many players on this forum and even more in its previous incarnation including yours truly, I now know I am a low placement type IV, and also the most efficient rim size etc for my chops and why I got into the trouble that led me to seek Doug’s help in the first place.

So have a lesson with him, and you will wish you had many years earlier.

[imsevimse]

"My question is a mechanical one, why is it I seem to play lower and higher on a Yamaha 45A (a Bach 12E equivalent) than a larger mouthpiece or a large bore horn? Is it my embouchure, my air flow, or both?"

Interesting! I have played a Bach 12E on alto and it's a great mouthpiece for that higher register. It's perfect with my small Bach 39 alto. On a tenor I can play the pedals too on that mouthpiece. It's possible on tenor but I would'nt use it there. For me the larger rim and the bigger depth of the larger mouthpiece helps the lower register. Often when we consider size of rim/cup we don't just consider register but also sound and stamina and finding a size that fit the horn. I'm lucky to be able to adjust to most mouthpieces very fast so I'm a bit curios.

What happens with lips/air when you've changed to the bigger rim and try the same low notes you can produce on the Yamaha 45A? What's the feel in your lips? What happens with pressure? What happens with air?

Often we build up tension somewhere when we think of something as hard. If we just skip that and relax and take it in small steps we can gradually increase our register, and to learn to adjust to different mouthpieces is the same. Learn to switch gradually. Begin with one mouthpiece and that can mean you play on that same one several years (as you learn the instrument), then add another. After you learned that first two you can continue to explore to fine tune things and discover more. In time you suddenly notice you aren't that limited by equipment as you used to be (my experience). You notice you can play any trombone mouthpiece and any size of trombone. It took me years to be independant of horns and mouthpieces. Now I choose horn and mouthpiece different for different sound and not primarily due to any limitations, but of course stamina still is one parameter. If I do a dance gig on first trombone for an evening I use a mouthpiece that makes the sound I'm after, easier. Same when I'm on bass trombone. I always bring one smaller and one larger mouthpiece and sometimes I switch on the same tune. It makes a small difference in register on the bass and I get a wholestep lower if I use the biggest one I have (Bach 1G) compared to the smallest (Bach 2G or Bach 1 3/4G) AND I get a fuller bass sound with the largest. Do I always want that? No, I don't, so that's why I bring two bass mouthpieces. Do I always need two valves? No, it depends, so if I know the music I often use a single. Next project now is to learn trumpet, cornet, flygelhorn and french horn and their mouthpieces. I started that route during pandemic and it's much tougher. I need to remember to do that too in small steps and not overdo it, because this also will probably take several years of small steps. I wonder when the tuba comes in?

/Tom

[Olofson]

Your question was why can you play on a very small mouthpiece with your new tooth set up, when you could play with many different mouthpieces 10 years ago. Right? I don´t think anybody hear can answer that question.
You have an instuctor, you can play a decent range, maybe not very loud? After 10 years of not playing your breathing maybe some training? Maybe after some time you like to change to a bigger mouthpiece? There are some good trombonists around playing very small mouthpieces with a good range, playing loud to with good sound.
I am sorry that I can´t really answer your question, you seem to do ok, keep up the good, keep swingin!

[Trhtrbn]

Your question was why can you play on a very small mouthpiece with your new tooth set up, when you could play with many different mouthpieces 10 years ago. Right? I don´t think anybody hear can answer that question.
You have an instuctor, you can play a decent range, maybe not very loud? After 10 years of not playing your breathing maybe some training? Maybe after some time you like to change to a bigger mouthpiece? There are some good trombonists around playing very small mouthpieces with a good range, playing loud to with good sound.
I am sorry that I can´t really answer your question, you seem to do ok, keep up the good, keep swingin!

That is exactly what I was asking. I appreciate the comments, just plugging away everyday. My real concern is I know from experience that unlearning a bad habit is more difficult than doing it right from the start. Just trying to not create any bad habits since I am basically starting over from scratch. I guess the best approach is to concentrate on musically pleasing sound production and realizing that it will involve some trial and error. Thank you very much.

[Trhtrbn]

Thank you all for the comments.

[tbonesullivan]

As others have indicated, after that kind of injury and layoff from playing, it can be like starting from square one. Aside from the issues with losing teeth there also was undoubtedly soft tissue damage that can lead to internal scarring.

Do you play with your dentures in, or do you take them out? I definitely have met trombone and trumpet players who play with them out, as well as those who play with them in.

Another thing is that right now you are "used to" the 45A. For me, when I made even a relatively small mouthpiece change from a Bach 5G to a Laskey 59MD, it took a while until it felt "good", at least for me.

[Trhtrbn]

I play and practice with the dentures in. I find that playing with them out is not consistent and the embouchure tends to be more firm with the dentures than without them, in my experience.

[WGWTR180]

I would like to say something that I truly hope is taken in the way I intend, just sharing a friendly opinion. Some of the responses I have received can seen extremely harsh if not down right rude. I understand that chatting and text can seem rude even if it is not intended to be. I was in high end air conditioning and refrigeration for over 40 years, the last 15 years I spent a lot of time training young people. I was taught and I applied the concept that the only stupid question is the one that is never asked. That being said, I only ask questions because I like to research all the possible angles of any subject and to me practical experience trumps intellectualism every time. I hope that anyone who reads my questions can appreciate that I am never being rude or mean in my comments at any time. Thank you to those who do respond.

Just curious. Where were the rude responses you received here? I only saw I response from Doug prior to this post from you. Doug’s response was certainly not rude so I’m a little confused. Thanks and I hope you have success restarting your playing.