TromboneChat

Was curious of the cup shape difference (if there is one) of the 51 and 5g. I know the rims and cup depths are a tad different, but I didn't know about the cup shape. Don't have both to compare in person, otherwise I'd just look.

the 51 is based on a 5G Ralph Sauer happened to own and like a lot, as far as I know. It's a little deeper than an average 5G.

They are different creatures. Generally speaking, comparing only the stock mouthpieces:

Bachs tend to have sharper, flatter rims; smaller throats with a sharper "edge" to them; and a shorter overall length; while

Schilkes tend to have rounder rims; larger, smoother throat; and longer overall length.

The same holds true for the 51 vs. 5G comparison. Very different approaches to mouthpiece design, and very different feel and response for the player.

I would not generalize "Bachs tend to have sharper, flatter rims.". I've seen a few like that, but most are quite round with a pronounced high point.

Most 51's I have seen and measured are considerably larger inside than the specs would indicate. Far bigger than the average 5G.

Yeah, that wasn’t clear, was it?

Compared to Schilkes, many Bachs have sharper feeling rims.”

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 11:41 am Bachs tend to have sharper, flatter rims; smaller throats with a sharper "edge" to them; and a shorter overall length; while

Schilkes tend to have rounder rims; larger, smoother throat; and longer overall length.

I've asked a similar question in the past, but why/what for the overall length differences of the mouthpieces?:

Possibly slotting more/less, greater flexibility/easier flexibility. I'm not concerned on the exact differences or the variables, more so on what possible changes the length differences could make. Thanks.

To me, 51s tend to feel like they have flatter, sharper rims, than Bach 5Gs, just rims that are a touch bigger in inside diameter. My 51s vary a bit in diameter. All are a bit deeper (cup) than most 5G-ish things (excluding my 51C4s, of course). But, I have something labeled "5G" (not Bach) that is deeper than any of my 51s.

Though they vary in other ways, all large shank Schilkes I've tired--and I've messed with many of them from 51-60--are in one of two lengths: a standard, Bach length for the modern/typical "large" shank, and .25" longer for the "long shank" Schilkes that are sort of "dual taper" and designed to work both in Remington and standard large shank leadpipes. For standard large shank leadpipes, I prefer the normal large shank Schilkes. But, for a Remington pipe or the odd old Holton, I strongly prefer the "long shank" Schilkes. To me, a Remington pipe only slots and does what it does best with the longer shanks, whether the "long shank" Schilkes or something made long just for them (Greg Black does it, etc).

As far as rim shape, Bach varies hugely by model. A Bach 5G rim is quite different from a 4G rim. Not to mention a 6 1/2 AL! And, there are enormous variations among the same model. I just messed around with a Bach "3G" that has a 5G like-cup and flatter, sharper rim than I've ever seen on a 5G (but wider ID).

Schilkes might be more consistent in design. I don't think of a 51 and 52 as having remarkably different rims, even though the rest of the mouthpiece is. (Why is a 52 throat so much smaller? It sure doesn't work for me.) But, you'll often see 51C4s and those do have sharper rims. Some are just too sharp for me, and others are not ideal in other ways (some flat sound bad). And then there is the 52E2. Not only really deep, but an entirely different, very round rim shape. I've got a 47C4 right now with a rim that is quite wide, unlike a 51C4 or 50C4.

My point is that you can't really put Bachs and Schilkes into distinct camps. A Venn diagram would have some significant overlap. There are 51s and 5Gs that are probably more alike each other than they are other similarly labled mouthpieces. I've got a 52E2 and a 4G that much closer to each other than they are to other pieces with the same brand on them. This isn't even mentioning the one-off pieces. I have a Schilke labeled "5G 88H." It is just that--very Bach 5G-like with a Remington shank.

If you want consistency from size to size and one mouthpiece to be like another, Doug Elliott is your guy. In fairness, I haven't bought a bunch of supposedly identical boutique mouthpieces to see how similar they are, though. (Probably be interesting to get a pile of GB 5Gs or Griego 4.5s or Hammond 12MLs or whatever).

For some of us, though, finding and playing through a pile of 'pieces that are supposed to be alike but are most definitely not is where the fun is at, and maybe even the magic! (Says the guy with a ton of mouthpieces for sale).

Paul

I prefer the bach I like the 5g I do however own both of these mouthpieces as they are really common. I also have 2 trumpet mouthpieces and 2 tuba mouthpieces.