Doug Elliott C/C2 vs C+/D2 for .500 bore

[Diana6]

Is there a noticeable difference between these combo's for a .500 bore? Has anyone tried both on the same instrument (with the same rim)?

In this case, sizing down from a C+/D2 to a C/C2.

The C+/D2 combo seems a bit difficult in the upper ranges, but mid to lower is very good.

[Trav1s]

When I purchased a 30's Conn 32H, Doug suggested the C+/D2 with the LT102 rim I use on my 79H. The 32H is gone but I'm still using the C=/D2 .485 and .500 Conns. I have not tried the C/C2 combo. I have found rims to make more of a difference than I expected. What rim are you using? I like to play LT102 most of the time but it requires more practice to stay in shape. I have experiemented with LT101 and LT100 rims which helps with endurance but notes below to require more effort.

I find there is a delicate balance between cup depth and rim diameter. YMMV

[Diana6]

My son is the player and he uses the LT100.

I'm sure more practice time would help a lot, but as a college student, he doesn't have much free time... rehearses in the jazz band twice a week.

[Matt K]

Yeah the difference to me is noticeable. I prefer a C+ for opposite reasons that you’re looking to go shallower. A B or B+ would be even more pronounced.

[hyperbolica]

Is there a noticeable difference between these combo's for a .500 bore? Has anyone tried both on the same instrument (with the same rim)?

In this case, sizing down from a C+/D2 to a C/C2.

The C+/D2 combo seems a bit difficult in the upper ranges, but mid to lower is very good.

If your son is having problems in the upper register with a C+ on a 500 bore, he needs to spend more time on the horn. You can't really buy him a high register. I could see an F vs C cup making the high register difficult, but not the difference between C and C+. I use E (and D and C) on horns that size, and the difference is more in the depth of the sound than the available range. The C/C2 is a pretty bright combination, I don't have C+/D2, but comparatively, especially if he's not dialed in, that's a relatively minor difference. He might notice a slightly different feel, but it's not going to give him any extra range. He just needs to spend more time on the horn on a regular basis.

[Vegasbound]

Diligent, organised practice supported by regular lessons with a good teacher!


That said, if I am right your son plays a Benge 170 freelance, as said above both work well with that horn if the setup is right for your son, you should invest in a Skype lesson with Doug.

I used the C+/D2 with my 170


No matter what you buy him, unless he spends FaceTime with his horn, nothing will work.

[Diana6]

Yep, I get it. He has time for practicing in the summer, but not during college semesters. Not a music major.

I thought maybe a slight tweak would help a bit when he doesn't have a lot of time to put in.

[Vegasbound]

Yep, I get it. He has time for practicing in the summer, but not during college semesters. Not a music major.

I thought maybe a slight tweak would help a bit when he doesn't have a lot of time to put in.

20-30 mins a day of proper practice would make a big difference

[Doug Elliott]

There are other possibilities...
He may need a lesson to correct mechanical issues in his playing.
OR, depending on his embouchure, the 100 (or the LT series) may simply be too big for him.
He could either try a smaller rim still in the LT series, or move to the MT or ST series, rim size to be determined...

I would be able to give specific advice if I could see him play, by Skype.
(Practice time may not actually be the problem)

[ithinknot]

If your son is having problems in the upper register with a C+ on a 500 bore, he needs to spend more time on the horn.
... I use E (and D and C) on horns that size, and the difference is more in the depth of the sound than the available range.

+1 to that - the color change is far greater than any difference in range access. Honestly, high trouble on any of these isn't the mouthpiece.

You can't really buy him a high register.

Not with a change of cup, but you probably can with a Skype lesson

[Cmillar]

FWIW....based on being my being older than your son, as someone who's still a serious 'student of the trombone' while being a professional, and as someone who's had a struggle with the high register....

...until I started having lessons/advice from Doug Elliott.

So, I came out of college and proceeded to do the majority of my professional playing on a smaller bore horn. I've had .500's, .508's, .509's, and am now back on a .481 - .495 King 2B.

Spent many years and many, many dollars on different mouthpieces that would 'work' for awhile, and then it wouldn't 'work', and so I'd try something else for awhile. Repeat cycle over and over, etc.

Common advice was "get a mouthpiece that a lot of pros play in the 6 1/2C to 12C range for your small bore horns".

That was the 'gospel' according to teachers and pros I respected and admired.

I sure wish I'd been aware of, or had any teachers that were aware of, the Donald Rheinhardt methods and concepts that Doug Elliott and a few others are able to pass on to us all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Plus, Doug has the added bonus of being able to prescribe the correct rim size for a brass player and to help get you started correctly on the Reinhardt concepts.

(Thanks to Doug, I have a high range now that was only a dream when I was in college and even until very recently in my life. Sure wish I could do a lot of gigs all over again! But hey, better late than never!)

So...you want to give your son the best gift ever if he's serious about the trombone?

Get him together with Doug and get him suited up on the correct size of rim to fit his facial makeup.

Then, worry about the cup/shank sizes later depending on what kind of trombone he's playing.

Get the rim size figured out first! It may be much larger or smaller than what he has right now depending on what will be best for his facial makeup.

Or don't.....but then be prepared to spend thousands of dollars on wasted mouthpiece experiments that will start filling up many shoeboxes.....and the high range will still be elusive.

As they say: "Why die wondering?"