TromboneChat

What’s some bad advice you’ve heard for choosing a mouthpiece?

A lot of the info out there on choosing a mouthpiece is meant well. But I know we’ve all heard bad advice about choosing mouthpieces—advice that isn’t helpful, advice to avoid, or information that is just plain wrong. I’ll start:

“Find a good piece and stick with it.”

So… how are you supposed to know what’s good, especially if you’re a beginner?

Have an experienced and capable teacher.

The bad advice: you have to get a larger mpc, you have to get a specific make / model (all without regard to your playing ability and horn).

> "Find a good piece and stick with it"

You shouldn't be looking to change mouthpieces unless the one you are using is holding you back. How do you determine it's holding you back? Usually someone else will evaluate your playing and determine that the mouthpiece is the problem. This is why we keep coming back to the private teacher. A good teacher will be able to distinguish between problems due to a need for training or bad equipment.

Certainly some go on a mouthpiece buying spree and keep hoping that the next purchase will "ring the bell". Sometimes it does, but more often it doesn't because if you don't know what is wrong you'll never know it's fixed.

I actually like the "stick with it" advice. When I was ~19, I decided all to get the biggest mouthpiece I could use, so I started experimenting. Starting from a 5G, I was eventually using a 52e2 (on an 88h) before I realized my sound was suffering with no benefit other than a big mouthpiece. My chops never really recovered until I got some help, settled on a size and stuck with it.

The "mouthpiece safari" is usually a bad idea. You often wind up where you started, and if you don't have guidance of someone who knows what they're talking about, you can mess up your playing. By "knows what they're talking about" I don't mean an upperclassman buddy. I mean someone like Doug Elliot.

The bad advice in this case was peer pressure in the late 80s telling me I needed a bigger mouthpiece.

I was playing a Bach 5G on my .547 main horn, worked great. Bad advice I got when I started playing my small bores more was to get a small mouthpiece as that was the only way to play lead. I tried 7, 7C, 12, and other brands in similar sizes with no success, but a mouthpiece guru told me to try a Bach 5. It opened up the horn immensely and even though "bigger" improved my high range. Thanks again, Doug!

Mostly I see advice from high school kids (not here, elsewhere) saying "I play on a Dennis Wick Heritage 5ABL, it's the best everyone at my school plays one."

walldaja wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:20 am Have an experienced and capable teacher.

The bad advice: you have to get a larger mpc, you have to get a specific make / model (all without regard to your playing ability and horn).

The bad advice I got: you need a smaller mouthpiece

Not me, but one of my students. He had been renting for a few years, and when he reached 6th grade his parents traded up to a Yamaha 448. (He actually did very well with it, and is now playing bass 'bone in his H.S. band and even made all-state)
The Yamaha came with a 48 mouthpiece, close in size to a 6 1/2 AL, which was well-suited to him and the horn for middle school. However, someone at the store convinced his parents that they needed to buy another mouthpiece - larger and quite expensive, over $100., (Hammond? I don't remember now)
A waste of money, IMO. Fine for an advanced player perhaps, but he did not yet have the air nor emboucure to justify it.

What I find more troubling than bad mouthpiece advice is an organizational mouthpiece "policy" that requires everyone to use the same mouthpiece.

JohnL wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:58 pm What I find more troubling than bad mouthpiece advice is an organizational mouthpiece "policy" that requires everyone to use the same mouthpiece.

Especially when it's promulgated by people who don't understand how trombone mouthpieces are numbered. I remember the case where a trumpet playing teacher thought that since a 1C is a great trumpet mouthpiece, by extension a 1G must be a great trombone mouthpiece, and everybody had to use it (poor 1st Trombones! )

"You need to play on a 6.5AL."

Yeah... no questions about why I was playing on the Schilke 51B either.

JohnL wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:58 pm What I find more troubling than bad mouthpiece advice is an organizational mouthpiece "policy" that requires everyone to use the same mouthpiece.

Never heard of this one.
Do these organizations also require the players to wear the same size shoes?

JohnL wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:58 pm What I find more troubling than bad mouthpiece advice is an organizational mouthpiece "policy" that requires everyone to use the same mouthpiece.

Had that try to happen to me twice, once in a band I was helping! Told both to get stuffed

Posaunus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:03 pm

JohnL wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:58 pm What I find more troubling than bad mouthpiece advice is an organizational mouthpiece "policy" that requires everyone to use the same mouthpiece.

Never heard of this one.
Do these organizations also require the players to wear the same size shoes?

Yes, these kinds of organizations exist. I don’t know about shoe policies, but having had a variety of careers and jobs in my life (including a shoe salesman), little surprises me anymore.

I think it’s rare anymore that an organization will make all players use the same mouthpiece after beginning band (where almost everyone starts out with a 12C for good or ill), but it’s more often found in schools where the band director has little experience, and specifically little experience teaching brass instruments, and in some drum-and-bugle corps.

I'm one of those evil, evil people that made my 24-person euphonium sections play on the same mouthpiece in drum corps. Come at me.

Aidan, you’re evil …

…aaand if the shoe fits…

“X person plays this mouthpiece and or endorses it, play that one”

I've heard stories about band directors or conductors requiring that everyone in the section play the exact same mouthpiece and horn so that the section blends together properly. Like everyone must play a Bach 5G on a Bach 42. Nothing wrong with that setup, but mouthpieces sizes are like shoes. Don't try to make me wear a size 8 when my feet are 10 1/2.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:39 pm Mostly I see advice from high school kids (not here, elsewhere) saying "I play on a Dennis Wick Heritage 5ABL, it's the best everyone at my school plays one."

**Ordering a Denis Wick Heritage 5ABL right now**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:00 am I'm one of those evil, evil people that made my 24-person euphonium sections play on the same mouthpiece in drum corps. Come at me.

I've had that conversation several times, going back to when I was in drum corps myself (which was quite a while ago, now). It's rather like trying to argue religion or politics (or maybe even religion and politics at the same time).

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:00 am I'm one of those evil, evil people that made my 24-person euphonium sections play on the same mouthpiece in drum corps. Come at me.

That is quite common in Drum corps. I refused adamantly though.

O.p. Buying mouthpieces because some plays it, was the worst advice I've ever given.

JohnL wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:22 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:00 am I'm one of those evil, evil people that made my 24-person euphonium sections play on the same mouthpiece in drum corps. Come at me.

I've had that conversation several times, going back to when I was in drum corps myself (which was quite a while ago, now). It's rather like trying to argue religion or politics (or maybe even religion and politics at the same time).

Why do they care what mouthpiece you use so much in drum corps?

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:49 pm

Why do they care what mouthpiece you use so much in drum corps?

A few different reasons...

1. It's a big section, and you want everyone to sound the same. Everyone is on the same instrument, so using the same mouthpiece will help that. It's also on marching baritone or euphonium, which is not an instrument anyone plays day to day.

2. Drum corps is only for up to 22 year olds, and many are younger than that. Very few of them have any idea of what mouthpiece should be on that point anyway.

I let my sections use whatever rim size they wanted, but it had to be the same Hammond L or XL cup- most were on the 12L.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:00 am I'm one of those evil, evil people that made my 24-person euphonium sections play on the same mouthpiece in drum corps. Come at me.

I still would have just used my own mouthpiece, or quit. I guess if someone was adamant enough and I wanted to do drum corps bad enough, I'd fork out the dough to have my mouthpiece copied into the blank shape that satisfied the director.

Aidan, I know that you know that I know that you know that people are going to sound like themselves, no matter what mouthpiece they are on, especially at the DCI level of playing. It just is easier or harder for them to sound like themselves depending on the gear. Not even the highest level orchestras make sections (who actually could make gear specs work for them) play on the same mouthpiece, and they blend just fine.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 3:22 pm

I still would have just used my own mouthpiece, or quit. I guess if someone was adamant enough and I wanted to do drum corps bad enough, I'd fork out the dough to have my mouthpiece copied into the blank shape that satisfied the director.

Aidan, I know that you know that I know that you know that people are going to sound like themselves, no matter what mouthpiece they are on, especially at the DCI level of playing. It just is easier or harder for them to sound like themselves depending on the gear. Not even the highest level orchestras make sections (who actually could make gear specs work for them) play on the same mouthpiece, and they blend just fine.

Again... most of these kids are 17 and playing on the 6.5AL they use at school. Most of the time, the mandated mouthpiece is leagues and leagues better than what they use at home. It's also a different instrument that shouldn't be played with a normal tenor trombone mouthpiece.

I know everyone gets their hackles raised about this issue, but how many of you were ABSOLUTELY sure what size you should have been playing even at 21? I sure wasn't. Almost no one I know does outside of some top conservatory kids.

Besides, it's for 2.5 months out of the year, not for life.

Telling people that a Bach 12C is a beginners mouthpiece is a bad advice.

It's true many student horns come with that size of mouthpiece and that a student with a small mouth may find that size fit their lips best but that's not the same as to say you outgrow a mouthpiece and that you naturally should use a bigger as you get better, maybe if the reason is you have grown and therefore your lips have changed but that's not same thing. Small mouthpieces aren't made to only serve the beginners and the big ones aren't to just serve advanced, and big isn't always better (that's my best advice concerning mouthpieces). To use a bigger mouthpiece if you are on a Bach 12C could mean you move to a Bach 11C, it does not need you should go to a Bach 2G size.

In my opinion the Bach 12C is a very understated mouthpiece, especially the Bach Mnt.Vernon 12C which is not the same as one of the later Bach 12C's.

"Try everything and use what works!" - best advice I've tead because then you will know, and you'll have all those to choose from.

"Try everything and use what works!" - worst advice I've read because it will cost you lots of money to buy all those mouthpieces.

/Tom

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 3:28 pm
Besides, it's for 2.5 months out of the year, not for life.

^
This is exactly it! Why worry about what mouthpiece they are using?

You know I'm just poking you in the ribs -- you're absolutely right that 17 year olds for the most part have no idea what they should be using, gear wise. They could do a lot worse than Hammond. Does the band at least fork over the gear or do they have to buy it themselves?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:13 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 3:28 pm
Besides, it's for 2.5 months out of the year, not for life.

^
This is exactly it! Why worry about what mouthpiece they are using?

You know I'm just poking you in the ribs -- you're absolutely right that 17 year olds for the most part have no idea what they should be using, gear wise. They could do a lot worse than Hammond. Does the band at least fork over the gear or do they have to buy it themselves?

"Why worry about what mouthpiece they are using?"

I know it's probably hard to believe, but it makes a MASSIVE difference when the whole section is on rando stuff, and when they are all on the same thing. I heard the difference multiple years in a row when the Hammond order would arrive and we would change over mid-rehearsal. Night and day. Why give up that advantage?

The kids buy the mouthpieces at a discount, usually. Sometimes they are just kept by the corps and loaned out every year.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 3:28 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 3:22 pm

I still would have just used my own mouthpiece, or quit. I guess if someone was adamant enough and I wanted to do drum corps bad enough, I'd fork out the dough to have my mouthpiece copied into the blank shape that satisfied the director.

Aidan, I know that you know that I know that you know that people are going to sound like themselves, no matter what mouthpiece they are on, especially at the DCI level of playing. It just is easier or harder for them to sound like themselves depending on the gear. Not even the highest level orchestras make sections (who actually could make gear specs work for them) play on the same mouthpiece, and they blend just fine.

Again... most of these kids are 17 and playing on the 6.5AL they use at school. Most of the time, the mandated mouthpiece is leagues and leagues better than what they use at home. It's also a different instrument that shouldn't be played with a normal tenor trombone mouthpiece.

I know everyone gets their hackles raised about this issue, but how many of you were ABSOLUTELY sure what size you should have been playing even at 21? I sure wasn't. Almost no one I know does outside of some top conservatory kids.

Besides, it's for 2.5 months out of the year, not for life.

I definitely had no clue what size was best for me. On my large bore tenor I was alternating between 5G, 4G, 3G and 2G sizes every month because nothing really worked for me back then, due to severe embouchure flaws. It wasn't until I took lessons with Doug Elliott that I had a better idea what I should be using.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:00 am I'm one of those evil, evil people that made my 24-person euphonium sections play on the same mouthpiece in drum corps. Come at me.

At one of those education panels at an ATW some years back, a very experienced and respected teacher said he made everyone use the same vowel sound. He said when judges walk up and down the line in front of each person you can tell the difference and they have to sound the same. ( I think it was toh)

I guess I can see the logic in the uniform mouthpiece (and instrument) approach - might make the sound more uniform for the ensemble. But unfortunately, not everyone can adapt to all mouthpieces. I can successfully play a variety of pieces - size and shape - but I could never do well with a Schilke 51B, and also struggled with a Conn Remington. (And please don't give me a Bach 12C.) If any of these had been chosen as the "standard" I really would have struggled.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:54 pm

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:49 pm

Why do they care what mouthpiece you use so much in drum corps?

A few different reasons...

1. It's a big section, and you want everyone to sound the same. Everyone is on the same instrument, so using the same mouthpiece will help that. It's also on marching baritone or euphonium, which is not an instrument anyone plays day to day.

2. Drum corps is only for up to 22 year olds, and many are younger than that. Very few of them have any idea of what mouthpiece should be on that point anyway.

I let my sections use whatever rim size they wanted, but it had to be the same Hammond L or XL cup- most were on the 12L.

1. Yes, it’s easier to get a similar sound when everyone is playing similar equipment.

2. Rim size is crucial to how well the mouthpiece works with the user and vice versa. If players are able to use different sized rims with the same or pretty much the same cup and backbore, that seems a pretty good compromise to me.

Which reminds me of some related pieces of bad advice:

“If you want to sound like Famous Person, then you should use their mouthpiece.” I think someone mentioned this above.

“To get a uniform sound in the section, you should all play the same mouthpiece.”

Logic says that’s probably true, but it misses a couple of important things. Do you have to have a “uniform” sound in a section? There’s lots of orchestra and band sections where players have used different equipment and achieved a unique glorious sound. AFAIK, NY Philharmonic currently plays with 3 Shires (Alessi, Williams, Curran) and one Yamaha (Finlayson). But they used to play Bach then Edwards (Alessi), Edwards (various), Yamaha (Finlayson), and variously a Conn, Thein, Greenhoe, maybe some others (Harwood). No matter which incarnation, they made a glorious sound. No, not uniform down the line, but I think that was their strength.

For a drum and bugle corps, I get it: it’s easier to have everyone play the same (or very similar) equipment to to maximize the possibility of a uniform sound. Traditional swing bands are another good example. But I’m not convinced that the same equipment is a good thing for bands and orchestras where color is important.

"Use a bigger mouthpiece to get a bigger sound" - that's just not how it works. If your embouchure and air and sound concept aren't sorted out then using bigger equipment will usually sound weaker and less supported than the smaller gear you're more accustomed to.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:54 pmI let my sections use whatever rim size they wanted, but it had to be the same Hammond L or XL cup- most were on the 12L.

That actually sounds like you were giving them a pretty wide selection of choices, if they could pick any rim and from two different cup sizes? Mandating all the same brand mouthpiece is quite a bit less restrictive than "everybody on a 51D"

"If you're having trouble with your high range, get a shallower cup" & "If you are having trouble with your low range get a deeper cup".

Not true for some of us. I need a deeper cup to achieve the full potential of my high range because of the way I use my air, anything a little too shallow prevents me from accessing a pure low register and a free high register.

The BEST mouthpiece advice i've heard was:

"Try a bunch of mouthpieces, and pick the one that is both easy to play & has a good sound.

FWIW shallow mouthpieces seem to benefit from having a more open throat/backbore. It could just be that you didn't try the correct shallow mouthpiece for what you were trying to do.

"If you're having trouble with your high range get a shallow mouthpiece" IS bad advice, since it's really a matter of rim ID and embouchure function within that space that determines range limits from equipment. Obviously practice and knowing how to use what you've got is the biggest factor.

"If you are having trouble with endurance in the upper register, use a shallow mouthpiece" is good advice though.

Quoted from harrison reed

"If you're having trouble with your high range get a shallow mouthpiece" IS bad advice, since it's really a matter of rim ID and embouchure function within that space that determines range limits from equipment. Obviously practice and knowing how to use what you've got is the biggest factor.

This: Recently I tried a Greg Black 1.5NY and 1.25NY. I found the 1.5 easier for me to play than the shallower 1.25. The 1.25 was backing up on me with more resistance than I was comfortable with.

For a time I tried a Doug Elliott E cup on my large bore for show work, but I never felt comfortable on it as it seemed too shallow for the horn and the way that I use my air, so I just used the G+ cup for everything. However, the E feels great on my .525 bore.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:48 am FWIW shallow mouthpieces seem to benefit from having a more open throat/backbore. It could just be that you didn't try the correct shallow mouthpiece for what you were trying to do.

Actually, the mouthpiece(s) I used to use had open throats and open backbores, I still needed the deeper cup on top of that. After I discovered that the deeper cup worked for me, I needed to have a slightly smaller throat and voila, a mouthpiece that fits the way I play.

Everyone is different. Maybe the worst advice is "definitive" advice, My way or the highway type thing.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:48 am FWIW shallow mouthpieces seem to benefit from having a more open throat/backbore. It could just be that you didn't try the correct shallow mouthpiece for what you were trying to do.

"If you're having trouble with your high range get a shallow mouthpiece" IS bad advice, since it's really a matter of rim ID and embouchure function within that space that determines range limits from equipment. Obviously practice and knowing how to use what you've got is the biggest factor.

"If you are having trouble with endurance in the upper register, use a shallow mouthpiece" is good advice though.

I know everyone is different but shallow to me means better stamina, to be able to stand a five hour dance gig on first with parts above f and up to high d and almost no pause between songs. As soon as one tune finishes next number is called and I need to be ready in about 10 seconds. Heavy arrangements with very little rests. Very loud playing for five hours. A shallow mouthpiece for me means a "lighter" sound and is what my colleagues want to hear from me in those circumstances. It's what I've been told and I appreciate the feedback. In the other end I feel the deeper mouthpiece I have fits the classical rep better. On my small bore .500 I use two mouthpieces, the Yamaha Nils Landgren signature mouthpiece which is shallow, but it is not the most shallow I have. The Nils Landgren is a very good compromise. It works on lead and gives a nice full solo sound. Nils sounds fantastic on his. It could work for classical too but when I play classical I use the Shires Marshall Gilkes signature mouthpiece instead. It gives a deeper classical sound that fits a brassquartet with classical sounds. For a five hours dance gig I wouldn't use the Marshall Gilkes mouthpiece even though I'm shure Mr Gilkes would use it, and sound terrific. Everyone is different. I like the mouthpiece but I'm not him.

/Tom

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:38 am Everyone is different. Maybe the worst advice is "definitive" advice, My way or the highway type thing.

All the bad mouthpiece advice I’ve gotten certainly falls in that category.

Two words: pop tone.

sungfw wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:07 pm Two words: pop tone.

I don't think that's enough words for anyone to know what you're talking about.

If you pop your hand on the rim or on the backbore end supposedly there's some significance to the interval difference. Maybe, but I never believed it.

Everyone is playing the 6 1/2 Al You need to play one

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:32 pm If you pop your hand on the rim or on the backbore end supposedly there's some significance to the interval difference. Maybe, but I never believed it.

Ah yes, the so-called “popping interval.” Supposedly, an octave or a ninth indicated a good mouthpiece, while anything less than an octave or more than a ninth was not.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:14 pm

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:32 pm If you pop your hand on the rim or on the backbore end supposedly there's some significance to the interval difference. Maybe, but I never believed it.

Ah yes, the so-called “popping interval.” Supposedly, an octave or a ninth indicated a good mouthpiece, while anything less than an octave or more than a ninth was not.

Interesting. Nerver heard of that. That "popping interval" test has not made it over here.

/Tom

I got suckered into the bigger in better scam!
I've gone back to my roots from 25ish years ago of 7, 6 or 5 on tenor, depending on bore & style. 3 on euph & 1.5 on bass.

Having studied in the late 70's, the "bigger is better" advice was hard to resist.

Bad advice?

"Hey kid....want more air through your 12C? Get an electric drill, put your m'piece in a vice and start boring out the shank."

Bad advice: "Don't worry about it. It doesn't matter. Learn the one you've got". This is what some say who are not gear players. They have used the same mouthpiece as always, the one they got with their trombone. They might not know what equipment they play because they are just interested in the music and has no interest in the gears. When asked what instrument they play they have to look at the bell and read what it says. They can be good players with gigs and experience, and since they are sucessful they think there is nothing to know about gears and also think their path is for everyone. I've met a few.

/Tom