TromboneChat

I've been playing on a bach 5G small shank, just got a schilke 51c4 in the mail. Trying them side by side there is a lot of difference that I'm noticing. The 51c4 tone for me is a lot brighter than the 5g, I'm finding articulation a bit snappier but I'm a little less accurate slotting my partials on it.

Obviously I have a bit of experience on the mouthpiece I've been playing and zero experience with the new piece I'm trying out. How do y'all decide which mouthpiece you play? How many of y'all keep multiple in your case for different purposes?

Assuming a new mouthpiece isn't an outright disaster for you on first blow, how long do you play with it before you make up your mind?

If you really want to try it, play it and NOT your other mouthpiece for a week or more. Use it in real world settings, preferably a variety of them.

none4u wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 3:21 pm How do y'all decide which mouthpiece you play? How many of y'all keep multiple in your case for different purposes?

Assuming a new mouthpiece isn't an outright disaster for you on first blow, how long do you play with it before you make up your mind?

First of all, the trombone chooses the right size mouthpiece, not me. If partials align and intonation is fine, which is easily detected in a couple of hours, ill keep the mouthpiece for further trial.

If in addition the rim works for me, and high and low register are possible without much effords, ill decide to play a week on it.

If I am then satisfied with response in different volumes and registers, its a keeper.

If in addition it has a tonal color I like, and complements the other mouthpiece choosen the same way, ill keep it forever.

I usually have two such choosen mouthpieces in my case for a particular trombone, one lighter and one darker. I use both depending on musical circumstances.

Another trombone in my stable might end with entirely different brand of mouthpieces. ..

Surely we can also consider another aspect: why change mpc? I'm not saying I don't, but if I personally do, it's because I'm looking for something different than the old one. If you change and you know why, you understand in a few days if the new one will work or not, but if your Bach 5G is fine, I would continue with that. Usually, if mpc doesn't work for us, we have several days and weeks negative feedback about playing and feeling, but if everything works there's no reason to look for something else!

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 3:30 pm If you really want to try it, play it and NOT your other mouthpiece for a week or more. Use it in real world settings, preferably a variety of them.

I think this is good advice. First you need to know any new mouthpiece. Second is to decide which mouthpiece for which horn and for which context. When you are confortable enough to switch without that in itself is a problem then you can bring more than one mouthpiece to a rehearsal and gig.

When I'm on my Kanstul 1662 bass trombone I usuallly bring two mouthpieces, one in the size of a 1 1/4G and one that has a wider rim and is deeper. The latter is to cover the lowest notes for those arrangements that requires real heavy bass work.

On tenor I also usually bring two mouthpieces. One for my playing and another in case someone forgets his mouthpiece. The mouthpiece that's for me varies. If it is a classical gig on my small bore I use my new Shires Marshall Gilkes signature mouthpiece and if it is a jazz gig I use a Yamaha Nils Landgren signature mouthpiece. They are very different.

How do I decide? I use the one that helps me sound the way I want.

/Tom

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 3:30 pm If you really want to try it, play it and NOT your other mouthpiece for a week or more. Use it in real world settings, preferably a variety of them.

This. You'll know very quickly if you want to make a switch after playing on the mp outside your home/normal practice room.

Everybody (or almost) seems to go on a mouthpiece safari or quest now and then. And almost everybody will tell you to avoid it if you can. It's good to have experience with a wide range of equipment, but it's also important to just use what you have. There's really no way to transmit this experience from one person to another, so you have to do it yourself, even if it detracts from your game. Often I have set out on some quest, like a small bore or bass bone quest, and then wind up exactly where I started, but at least I knew why I was using what I was using.

I tend to have short term and long term tests, and I usually try to keep them handy so I can use them back to back. For example, I might play a rochut with one mouthpiece, and then with the other. And then I might play a phrase with the mouthpieces back to back. And then I might take one to a rehearsal one week, and the other piece the next week. I usually don't get a real answer in less than a month, all told. Eventually, with the short term and long term input, the answer will become apparent to you. Sometimes, you wind up keeping both. Like me on bass. I use a DE mouthpiece for some things, and a Ferguson L for other things. There isn't always a clear winner.

I have to say, though, that after I started using DE stuff, I haven't wanted to switch mouthpieces on large or small tenor. Bass, euph and tuba are different issues, however...

A late mentor of mine would often comment that our sound is based on our tonal concept and not the mouthpiece. He would say that you can find a mouthpiece that you think improves your sound, and you will sound different at first, but after a month of using it, you'll sound exactly like you used to unless your idea of what a trombone should sound like has changed.

My approach is to find a mid-sized mouthpiece for the horn it's attached to..no rim too big or too small, no cup too shallow or too deep. This way your not sacrificing one range of the horn for the other and have the best chance of effortlessly connecting your pedal range to the tippy top. Spending a lot of time on a mouthpiece that is balanced for the horn will allow you to really know intuitively how to play that particular horn. It will also save you expensive forays into confusion and more unanswered questions. Then again, I've never been much of a gear guy.

You can't decide if something is better if you don't know what you're after. Everything has tradeoffs.

If it's a matter of range or just letting your embouchure function, that should be pretty simple. Being able to play different octaves without a big shift, or suddenly having extra range should be a dead giveaway. I still think they should make an inexpensive plastic "figure it the funk out" student mouthpiece set that is something like 3 DE mouthpieces with fixed shanks and 3 screw rims. An a E, F, and G cup, and a 101, 103, and 105 rim. Work with the kid for a month or whatever, and after 80% of them settle into the 103 F cup, you can get down to teaching again. That'd be $200 well worth it.

But if you're not talking about the basic parameters above (general rim and cup specs), which is so important to get right, then it comes down to knowing what you really need and what you're after, and then being objective about it.

For me, once I knew the basic specs I need to function, I knew I was after:

1. All the endurance
2. A clear, full sound
3. All the dynamics, soft and loud

That is easier said than done. Getting two of the three is easy, getting all three is almost impossible. I was pretty objective about it, and treated mouthpieces as tools to figure out the capabilities of and push, not something that defined my playing. Here is the progression:

Alessi 1C, still the best tone I think I've ever had on a setup, though not what I hear in my head. Great dynamics. Pretty poor endurance, especially in a concert band setting where you are playing the whole time for an hour+. I had to really hold back during long concerts, because the extra "easy" dynamic range does sap your face.

Bousfield V3, okay tone but with strange upper overtones emphasized. Impossible to play at full F or FF dynamics. Endurance to play basically indefinitely.

DE 106N E E8, great, clear tone. Could not push to a projecting F or FF. Endurance to play indefinitely.

106N - 4CL frankenpiece, full clear tone. Full access to all the dynamics. Endurance better than Alessi 1C, but difficult on long concerts. I actually had this made because I simply could not satisfy the demand from the conductor for more sound. This was the first time I solved a specific demand with a tailored equipment change, and had very positive feedback. The 4CL throat and backbore are like a cheat code to control the dynamics easily, but at the expense of endurance, possibly for the simple fact that both loud and soft dynamics tank you faster than mf playing.

Vennture L2, full clear tone that I hear in my head, full access to all the dynamics, slightly improved endurance over 106N4CL through a special rim contour. I'll begrudgingly give up the mega endurance I can get from the V3 for the dynamic range and semi-decent endurance of the L2. I specifically designed the L2 rim and cup contour in the CAD program to improve the endurance issues of the 106N4CL, and lifted the backbore/throat profile, shank taper, and overall length so the rest is exactly the same as my old frankenpiece.

So, that's how I worked through it. Before anyone calls foul on my assessment of the DE E / E8 dynamics -- it's probably me and something about how I play. I think Doug is a genius, and his small shank and alto pieces blow everything else out of the water.

In addition to everything mentioned above, on bass trombone, especially, I look to see if the mouthpiece is an air hog. If it feels like a vacuum cleaner that is sucking out all of my air quickly, then it goes bye bye.

I believe Doug Elliot said “Use the smallest mouthpiece you can play a low E with a good sound”.
I’ve used that plan with good results.

That's not really what I said.
I might say something like "use the biggest mouthpiece you have full high range AND endurance on.". That would probably correspond somewhat with the smallest mouthpiece you have good low range on.

The whole point is to have equal access AND good sound all over. MOST players I hear get a somewhat blatty sound and articulation from using a mouthpiece too small to really get a good open sound on.

Do not believe the common "wisdom" that a smaller mouthpiece gives better high range and endurance. In many cases it hampers both.

It also helps tremendously to be playing with correct mechanics for your embouchure type - and a lot of players aren't, so they end up with a distorted view of what works for them.

Quoting a recent email I got from someone who had both a Skype lesson and a much larger mouthpiece:

"Now with the embouchure adjustments and these wonderful mouthpieces, I can soar way up high and also have a rich low end with hardly any effort compared to how I used to play. ...
The mouthpieces are very interesting…they are so effortless to play on all across the instrument and are by far the most comfortable mouthpieces I’ve ever played. My whole playing feels 50-75% less taxing and my endurance is so much better now."

I’ve gone as large as the big Alessi tenor pieces and as small as a 6 and 1/2. Christan G once recommended his 4C for me. But after all that, it seems that something around a DE 102 rim works best for me. One mpc I’ve come back to several times is a small shank Schilke 51 on my .525. Maybe a little on the large size for that horn but I like playing it. On large tenor I like a DE 102 G/G8 or Schilke Symphony Series 5.1. Mainly trial and error with lots of mpcs over a considerable period of time.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:05 pm That's not really what I said.
I might say something like "use the biggest mouthpiece you have full high range AND endurance on.". That would probably correspond somewhat with the smallest mouthpiece you have good low range on.

The whole point is to have equal access AND good sound all over. MOST players I hear get a somewhat blatty sound and articulation from using a mouthpiece too small to really get a good open sound on.

Do not believe the common "wisdom" that a smaller mouthpiece gives better high range and endurance. In many cases it hampers both.

It also helps tremendously to be playing with correct mechanics for your embouchure type - and a lot of players aren't, so they end up with a distorted view of what works for them.

Quoting a recent email I got from someone who had both a Skype lesson and a much larger mouthpiece:

"Now with the embouchure adjustments and these wonderful mouthpieces, I can soar way up high and also have a rich low end with hardly any effort compared to how I used to play. ...
The mouthpieces are very interesting…they are so effortless to play on all across the instrument and are by far the most comfortable mouthpieces I’ve ever played. My whole playing feels 50-75% less taxing and my endurance is so much better now."

Doug,
I stand corrected. I got that turned around, it’s been quite a few years since I read that.

Driswood wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:55 am

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:05 pm That's not really what I said.
I might say something like "use the biggest mouthpiece you have full high range AND endurance on.". That would probably correspond somewhat with the smallest mouthpiece you have good low range on.

The whole point is to have equal access AND good sound all over. MOST players I hear get a somewhat blatty sound and articulation from using a mouthpiece too small to really get a good open sound on.

Do not believe the common "wisdom" that a smaller mouthpiece gives better high range and endurance. In many cases it hampers both.

It also helps tremendously to be playing with correct mechanics for your embouchure type - and a lot of players aren't, so they end up with a distorted view of what works for them.

Quoting a recent email I got from someone who had both a Skype lesson and a much larger mouthpiece:

"Now with the embouchure adjustments and these wonderful mouthpieces, I can soar way up high and also have a rich low end with hardly any effort compared to how I used to play. ...
The mouthpieces are very interesting…they are so effortless to play on all across the instrument and are by far the most comfortable mouthpieces I’ve ever played. My whole playing feels 50-75% less taxing and my endurance is so much better now."

Doug,
I stand corrected. I got that turned around, it’s been quite a few years since I read that.

I've read that too somewhere and it was presented as a quote from some professional player. I dont remember who wrote that and I do not remember who the professional player was either. I think personally that is good thinking, but the rest of the every day notes must be good to. I've assumed this was in the context that the high register wasn't the problem just the low register. This means the player need to scale up until the low notes works. This is why I have two different mouthpieces when I play bass. If I'm not allowed to own more than one and I regularly need to play notes below pedal F in forte then I would have to choose the largest from those two.

Edit: Found the tread
viewtopic.php?t=7805
It was someone who reffered to something that Sam Burtis had posted on the old forum Apparantly the professional tromboneplayer who said that was Jimmy Knepper.

./Tom

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2023 9:08 am
If it's a matter of range or just letting your embouchure function, that should be pretty simple. Being able to play different octaves without a big shift, or suddenly having extra range should be a dead giveaway. I still think they should make an inexpensive plastic "figure it the funk out" student mouthpiece set that is something like 3 DE mouthpieces with fixed shanks and 3 screw rims. An a E, F, and G cup, and a 101, 103, and 105 rim.

The jHorn mouthpiece is almost that.

It comes with 3 cup inserts that pop in and out. One is tiny, one medium and one large.

There are tradeoffs to all three. I ended up on the medium version because the out of tune partials are less obnoxious, but the low range is very difficult. The large one had low range but the intonation made my ears hurt. The small one is a trumpet size and this is a 9 foot Bb horn; I have a trumpet. Somewhere.

I’m using the medium size mouthpiece on my also for exactly the same reasons that Timothy42b has stated. Hi to have a trumpet somewhere but I think it has a lampshade and an on off switch with it.

I’m sorry my syntax no doubt sounds like I only have about a quarter of my brain working. This is what you get when you dictate to Siri.

ssking2b wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 9:05 am I’m sorry my syntax no doubt sounds like I only have about a quarter of my brain working. This is what you get when you dictate to Siri.

/Tom

Sam used his mouthpiece trials. He kept several on trial in his studio, disguised (I think with tape wrapping), and then rotated them through the days. Some dropped out. Finally only one was left. He was astonished it was always his "12c on steroids" NY piece, with some engraving I cannt remember.

That's a pretty fair way to do it. My own way is to use the equipment of someone I admire, and stick with it till it works.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:05 pm That's not really what I said.
I might say something like "use the biggest mouthpiece you have full high range AND endurance on.". That would probably correspond somewhat with the smallest mouthpiece you have good low range on.

The whole point is to have equal access AND good sound all over. MOST players I hear get a somewhat blatty sound and articulation from using a mouthpiece too small to really get a good open sound on.

Do not believe the common "wisdom" that a smaller mouthpiece gives better high range and endurance. In many cases it hampers both.

It also helps tremendously to be playing with correct mechanics for your embouchure type - and a lot of players aren't, so they end up with a distorted view of what works for them.

Quoting a recent email I got from someone who had both a Skype lesson and a much larger mouthpiece:

"Now with the embouchure adjustments and these wonderful mouthpieces, I can soar way up high and also have a rich low end with hardly any effort compared to how I used to play. ...
The mouthpieces are very interesting…they are so effortless to play on all across the instrument and are by far the most comfortable mouthpieces I’ve ever played. My whole playing feels 50-75% less taxing and my endurance is so much better now."

Reynold Schilke stated the same, from what I read.

My choise of mpc depends on the work I do. When playing in big orchestras I use Bach 1 1/4 G. I mostly play 1 1/2 G.

I thought this would be a fun. For context, I’m just finishing up my Masters in Bass Trombone and on my way to an AD. From 2015-2017, I played a Xeno, 2017-2021, A B&S MS27 and then from 2021-Now, a custom shires. Here is every mouthpiece I’ve ever played, in a serious way, a concert or gig was performed with it. Sometimes a journey is okay and trials are important, I really didn’t start trialing pieces in a thoughtful way until the end of last academic school year and look where that has put me.

2015-2017
- Bach 1/2G
- Doug yeo

2017-2018
- Doug Yeo
- Griego NY 1
- Griego deco 1

2018-2019
- Griego Deco 1
- Hammond 20 BL
- Giddings Chinook
- Giddings Don Harwood

2019-2020
- Giddings Don Harwood
- Giddings NY-O
- Giddings NY-S
- Marcinkiewicz EBT1

2020-2021
- Marcin EBT1
- DE 112/L/L8
- JK 01AK

2021-2022
- Brassark CV
- DE 112LL8
- DE 112KK9
- Laskey 90D
- Laskey 85MD
- Laskey 93D
- Griego GP
- Griego GP6
- Griego Dave Taylor 1
- Griego Markey 87

2022-2023
- Griego Markey 87
- Breslmair 112-6

Would I be a better player if I immediately got the breslmair or a Griego GP, who’s to say, but the journey is just as important as the destination

When you list it by year it's pretty interesting. I've used about as many as you but spread over 4 instruments and 26 years, which is still a lot less than some people who have 100+ mouthpieces and are still searching. Here is my journey of mouthpieces that I used for performances, dated like yours. I left out three pieces that I had but did not use in performance (Alessi 1B, Bousfield O3, DE E cup):

1997-1999: 7C

1999-2004: 6.5AL

2004-2007: 4CL

2007-2015: 4CL (tenor), 15CL (alto)

2015: Alessi 1C (tenor), DE106C+ (alto)

2016-2020: Alessi 1C (tenor), DE105/B/Alto (alto)

2020: Bousfield V3 (tenor), DE106N/A/Alto, C+D3 (3B)

2021: DE106N/4CL (tenor), DE106N/A/Alto, C+D3 (3B) DE-SB106JJ8 (bass)

2022: Vennture L2 and L1LW (tenor), DE106N/A/Alto, Vennture 1A prototype (3B), DE-SB106JJ8 (bass)

2023 (current): Vennture L2 (tenor), Vennture S1 (3B), Venture A1 (alto), Venture B1 prototype (Bass)

16 total, or 19 if you include ones that I did not seriously use, evolving over 26 years.

This is my list (what I considered to be my primary mouthpieces during certain periods)

1975-1979 Bach 12C (got my first horn a King 3B/F)
1979-1980 Bach 7C Bach 4C
1981-1982 Bach 6 1/2 AL, Remington (bought a Conn 88H), Bach 15E (bought my Bach 39 Alto but couldn't play it for many years)
1983-1984 Remington
1985-1988 Dennis Wick 6BL (large tenor), Bach 6 1/2 AL (small tenor)
1989-1996 Benge 12C (played almost everything on this mouthpiece and a straight King 3B), Dennis Wick 6BL, Yamaha 58 (bought my Yamaha 612R bass), Yamaha 48A (alto), Bach 12E (alto)
1996-1999 (nothing, didn't play)
2000-2003 Benge 12C, Dennis Wick 6BL, Bach 12E (alto), Bach 1 1/4G (bass) increast my stable with some new horns.
2004-2008 (nothing, didn't play)
2009-2013 Bach 6 3/4C (small tenor), Hammond 12M (medium/large tenor), Hammond 12ML( large tenor), Bach 12E (alto), Hanmond 20BL(bass)
2014-2018 Bach 6 3/4C (small tenor), Hammond 12M ( large/medium tenor), Bach 12E (alto), Hammond 20BL (bass) started collecting horns
2019- 2021 Bach 6 3/4C (small tenor), Bach 12E, (alto) Hammond 20BL (bass), K&G 0E (bass), Hammond 12M (large/medium tenor)
2022- Yamaha Nils Landgren signature mp (small bore tenor), Shires Marshal Gilkes signature mp (small/medium tenor), Bach 12E, (alto) Hammond 20BL (bass), K&G 0E (bass), Hammond 12M (large/medium tenor)

/Tom

I do a lot of buzz-ins to make sure I'm interfacing with the new mouthpiece accurately. It's really easy to try to fit the new mouthpiece the same way as the old mouthpiece, even though they're different.

As for assessing if a new mouthpiece works for me, I try to figure out (over time) if I haven't lost anything in the high range, and if the low range is improved. Even as a bass trombonist I am always looking for help in the lower range.

The common wisdom of "bigger is better" doesn't work for everyone...some folks play better EVERYWHERE on smaller equipment (and vise versa).

Hi folks !

I have been using the same mpc for almost 9 years now ( a Wedge custom 1G/S59 bass trbn mpc) .
.
Before that piece , I was for many years on a Bach 1G , then for one year on a Romera Brass T27L (kind of Schilke 59 with bigger rim' ID ) , then for one year and half on a Laskey 93D . Of course , I tested also others pieces for short periods of time ( Griego 0,75 ; Marcinkiewicz EBT1 Bill Reichenbach , Laskey 85MD ; and a few others) .

All these mpcs were great , everyone with his own characteristics .However , I was looking for a mpc that could give me the feeling of an EXTREME naturalness and comfort on my embouchure . This feeling must translate into the fact of having the best sound already from the FIRST note I play in the day . To me , " best sound" means the most centered , clear , warm , full , steady , in tune sound I can play , on a four beats long middle F at mf volume , or in a high F , or in a low Bb , ecc . And this , regardless of having played ten hours the day before , or being in a poor physical shape having slept perhaps only two hours .

This is my way to decide if a mpc is a better choice for me . Of course , I have to test it for many months , and in differents musical settings .

Regards
Giancarlo

I try to find the mouthpiece that makes a particular horn play best -- robust tone, accurate intonation, broad range from high to low, ease of response, always with the inherent sonic characteristics of the horn in mind. Sometimes I'll stay with the same mouthpiece for years, other times for only a while. I recently started playing tuba, and I turned out changing my bass mouthpieces. For the better. The tuba changed my concept of sound and breath.

On the other hand, I've only felt so-so about my Bach 42, but after fifteen years of trying different things, I found the right mouthpiece and totally fell in love with the horn.

I think this "personal concept of sound" may be a bit over rated. I'm really happy to have three basses that play very differently -- it is a luxury to change your sound to better fit a piece of music. And it is freeing to be a somewhat different player in different circumstances. After all, you don't want to bring that big band edge to a classical quintet or to bring an extremely dark symphonic tone to a summer band. You need to adapt your sound to the ensemble, and the choice of the mouthpiece is part of the dynamic.

-warren

Lastbone wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:04 pm
I think this "personal concept of sound" may be a bit over rated. I'm really happy to have three basses that play very differently -- it is a luxury to change your sound to better fit a piece of music. And it is freeing to be a somewhat different player in different circumstances. After all, you don't want to bring that big band edge to a classical quintet or to bring an extremely dark symphonic tone to a summer band. You need to adapt your sound to the ensemble, and the choice of the mouthpiece is part of the dynamic.

I think you just described a good sound concept, it’s got to be malleable to fit the job. But you can’t sound bad because you’re in a different gig. The idea for me of a sound concept is to find a good sound regardless of genre and to make sure my setup can accommodate that change. A bad sound concept would be the same sound regardless. After all you can’t play Haydn like bruckner