TromboneChat

Hi trombone hivemind,

I'm looking for a little bit of insight concerning bracing of a closed wrap 42b.

I've picked up an early Elkhart 42b in super stock condition(sn 84xx). I like a lot about it and plan to have the trigger assembly changed from the super old school thumb under MV assembly to something with a more efficient throw.

Outside of changing the rotor completely or turning it into an open wrap, what have you found success with?

I appreciate the suggestions or insights.

I’m sorry I don’t have any suggestions, as my 42 has been heavily modified.

If I were to redo the trigger assembly, I would think about the Conn 88H or King 4B. I really loved the trigger/lever assembly on an old 4B I had ages ago: very efficient, and it didn’t disturb the embouchure with movement as much as the over-the-thumb kind you find on a stock Bach. Similar with old Conns: more efficient, less torque.

If you want to first try a simple inexpensive mod that shortens the throw, is basically silent, and requires no maintenance, I have been very happy with the Clontz linkage. Todd Clontz of Baltimore makes them, it can be a little hard to get in touch with him though, and I think he waits to have enough orders so he can make a batch at a time.
Of course the trigger lever is not changed, but I actually like the placement better than the Kings and Conns.
I can post a pic if you want.

Mamaposaune wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 10:30 am Of course the trigger lever is not changed, but I actually like the placement better than the Kings and Conns.
I can post a pic if you want.

Yes, please post a pic.

The Clontz linkage on an otherwise stock 42B

The Clontz linkage on an otherwise stock 42B.

Bach also makes a miniball conversion kit.

https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/tro ... mbones.php

This is the bracing on my bach

Side note, I actually really like the action on my under thumb NY50…. Only problem is on the lever the length between the pivot point and the vertical pull bar is too great. I’ve thought about modifying it to have and adjustable paddle there, but keep the under thumb configuration.

Cheers,
Andy

I think those might be what the OP is looking for, but I don’t know—I’m not the OP!

Andy, that’s the kind of lever arrangement I was talking about—where the lever or spatula fits under the thumb. (If I had the money and inclination, I would look into replacing the levers and spatulas for my F-attachment horns.)

I know this has been mentioned here on TC (or perhaps the old TTF), but when did Bach stop using the under-thumb levers for their trombones? During the New York era, the transition from NY to Mt Vernon?

There were still under the thumb levers being used in the very early Elkhart years.

Just 2 weeks ago, I got my 42BO back from Dana Hofer in Des Plains. I had the trigger rebuilt with upgraded miniballs and moved for playing convenience. Here's how it turned out---

Whenever I've had triggers upgraded, I make sure to have them fit my hand as well as possible, even if it is more expensive.

The other mod you might consider is to have the valve ports opened for a better blow; the mod is not expensive and works really well.

Good luck!
Warren

You have a few options for modifying the lever on those old Bachs. The more costly way is to buy a newer "over the thumb" trigger and have it customized with Minibal linkages (shown by Lastbone) or a steel ball and nylon socket linkages (shown by Mamaposaune).

A cheaper way is to keep the exact lever that you have and modify it so that the "reach" is much shorter. I have done this on a few of the old Bachs and the players have been very happy with them. Here is the process:

*Cut off the old rod where your thumb was intended to make contact.
*Trim the "reach rod" to the intended distance that you wish to reach.
*Solder on a perpendicular brass, nickel or stainless rod at that location.

The result is favorable in two ways:

1. The "reach" can be customized to exactly where the musician wishes to have thumb contact.
2. The "throw" of the lever (distance it travels from disengaged to fully engaged) is reduced because the contact point is closer to the pivot point of the hinge screw.

I don't have any photos of the 1960s Bachs that I modified, but I do have the photo below which shows the same principal. This lever is from a stencil alto trombone (probably a Schiller) that I modified a few months ago. The lever reach was originally too far, so the thumb contact point was brought closer by trimming the reach rod and installing a new perpendicular brass rod for the thumb contact.

download/file.php?mode=view&id=19273

Very nice work, Brian. For myself, I struggle to solder two wires together. Is that a little guard on the valve to keep it from pinching your neck? I NEED one!

Hey all, thanks for the the replies and suggestions.

The trigger assembly is the old under the thumb system. The Clontz linkage wouldn't do the trick (the Bach I owned back in the day would've loved it). What Andy talked about with his NY50 is what I'm describing in a nutshell, the throw is super long. The rotor is smooth and more open than I was expecting (no modifications needed there unless I slap something else on it).

My solder skills aren't great, I do like what Crazy4Trombone86 mentioned as it would solve the problem.

Part of me wants to keep the horn as stock as possible, in case I ever decide to sell it. It's a closet queen, but a player.

On a similar thought process, what about the bracing of the F-attachment to the bell. I see what Elow has done with the bracing, I tried it on a mid 90s Bach that I had Eric Edwards do some work on, the response felt weird on the horn and I quickly passed it along.

Maybe it'll just get turned into an open wrap job, I don't know. I know that I don't want to just live with a long throw on the valve for too long.

Anyway, here are some pictures for reference.

Thanks again!

Lastbone wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:20 pm Very nice work, Brian. For myself, I struggle to solder two wires together. Is that a little guard on the valve to keep it from pinching your neck? I NEED one!

There is not a guard on that trigger. Maybe you are referring to the small wing nut that connects the rotor to the slide receiver? Anyway, those alto trombones are very quirky and unique. The trigger does not catch on my neck on those models, but I imagine it could be a problem for some players.

So, a mod: cut off the vertical section, add a new pull lever with a set screw to adjust the position of the pull bar along the horizontal bar, like some adjustable levers (Conn CL2000, e.g.)

Leaving it stock, you could make a paddle that could attach to the vertical post to bring it closer to pivot. I haven’t done either yet… I tend just to let my thumb slip a little lower and catch on the radius of the bend for faster actuation if needed… I’m used to a Thayer and the throw isn’t that bad. But it could clearly be optimized. I’ll probably do the second version when I get around to it… but first I need to figure out the Drop in D attachment on this horn.