TromboneChat

Just wondering if anyone has any experience with having a mouthpiece rim reshaped to be more comfortable, and can talk about how difficult it is for a tech to do, and any affects on the sound and response?

I’m think as an alternative to having a rim cut and converting to a screw rim to accept say, Doug Elliot rims, and keeping it as a 1-piece mouthpiece.

It's easy to do.... I've probably done hundreds over the years. The trick is to know what you are doing. Comfortable and good can be at odds. Best for the tech to have a rim you really like to copy from, but even then, the rim will feel different with a different cup and backbore. They come together to form a whole.

I would suggest having someone who regularly makes mouthpieces do it. The end result will likely be better. As far as the comment that comfortable and good can be at odds, that's a bunch of hokum. Your mouthpiece should be comfortable. Period.

Well, that last statement is pretty open for discussion...

To break it down to a simple aspect: If you go to the extreme in making the rim broad and round for 110 percent comfort, it will compromise playability. But of course it shouldn't hurt to play. It's a balance.

MStarke wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:16 am Well, that last statement is pretty open for discussion...

To break it down to a simple aspect: If you go to the extreme in making the rim broad and round for 110 percent comfort, it will compromise playability. But of course it shouldn't hurt to play. It's a balance.

Actually I make a rim that is exactly that, big fatty with a nice round radius. For players who like a wide rim it's quite fantastic. Rim width doesn't always equal comfort or playability, which of why I offer 5 different widths.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:57 am I would suggest having someone who regularly makes mouthpieces do it. The end result will likely be better. As far as the comment that comfortable and good can be at odds, that's a bunch of hokum. Your mouthpiece should be comfortable. Period.

I’m just aware that a change in rim contour could affect how your chops interact with the piece, and perhaps change aspects of the sound or response that you like about it, even if it makes it more comfortable.

Rusty wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:14 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:57 am I would suggest having someone who regularly makes mouthpieces do it. The end result will likely be better. As far as the comment that comfortable and good can be at odds, that's a bunch of hokum. Your mouthpiece should be comfortable. Period.

I’m just aware that a change in rim contour could affect how your chops interact with the piece, and perhaps change aspects of the sound or response that you like about it, even if it makes it more comfortable.

Change? Absolutely. A gross generalization would be the more at home you feel, the better it will work for you. I deal with this regularly, and it's cool as hell watching a mouthpiece go from middling to outstanding simply changing the rim width.

The cheapest way to check it out it's too and your mouthpiece to Vennture, get the scan back, and edit the rim in the software. Then you can get a 3D print for like $30. And you'll know if it's a good idea or not.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:28 am

MStarke wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:16 am Well, that last statement is pretty open for discussion...

To break it down to a simple aspect: If you go to the extreme in making the rim broad and round for 110 percent comfort, it will compromise playability. But of course it shouldn't hurt to play. It's a balance.

Actually I make a rim that is exactly that, big fatty with a nice round radius. For players who like a wide rim it's quite fantastic. Rim width doesn't always equal comfort or playability, which of why I offer 5 different widths.

Well, if you are making a rim that has perfect comfort and perfect response etc., then I guess you are the chosen one who found the golden formula.

What I totally believe you is that you found a very comfortable rim and very good playability. But perfect?
It's a bit like completing a project with minimal time and minimal budget, but maximum result. The unholy triangle of project management.

I guess it's not worth discussing.

MStarke wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:57 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:28 am

Actually I make a rim that is exactly that, big fatty with a nice round radius. For players who like a wide rim it's quite fantastic. Rim width doesn't always equal comfort or playability, which of why I offer 5 different widths.

Well, if you are making a rim that has perfect comfort and perfect response etc., then I guess you are the chosen one who found the golden formula.

What I totally believe you is that you found a very comfortable rim and very good playability. But perfect?
It's a bit like completing a project with minimal time and minimal budget, but maximum result. The unholy triangle of project management.

I guess it's not worth discussing.

I never claimed anything to be perfect. Just sayin.

Quote:
As far as the comment that comfortable and good can be at odds, that's a bunch of hokum

That logically means that you have a solution that doesn't require compromises.

That's quite a statement.

MStarke wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:18 pm Quote:
As far as the comment that comfortable and good can be at odds, that's a bunch of hokum

That logically means that you have a solution that doesn't require compromises.

That's quite a statement.

That's correct, I do.

Still didn't say I have the perfect mouthpiece for all mankind. Mostly because there's no such thing. If there was I wouldn't need 5 different rim widths

Whatever

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:35 pm

MStarke wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:18 pm Quote:
As far as the comment that comfortable and good can be at odds, that's a bunch of hokum

That logically means that you have a solution that doesn't require compromises.

That's quite a statement.

That's correct, I do.

Still didn't say I have the perfect mouthpiece for all mankind. Mostly because there's no such thing. If there was I wouldn't need 5 different rim widths

It's also an entirely different thing if you're designing both the rim and mouthpiece from scratch, vs modifying a physically existing mouthpiece. At some point you might reach perfect comfort while having removed enough material that the mouthpiece does not play as good anymore.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:57 pm

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:35 pm


That's correct, I do.

Still didn't say I have the perfect mouthpiece for all mankind. Mostly because there's no such thing. If there was I wouldn't need 5 different rim widths

It's also an entirely different thing if you're designing both the rim and mouthpiece from scratch, vs modifying a physically existing mouthpiece. At some point you might reach perfect comfort while having removed enough material that the mouthpiece does not play as good anymore.

Largely depends on specifics of the situation. I don't modify mouthpieces from other brands so not something I'd go wrapping my head around.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:00 pm

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:57 pm

It's also an entirely different thing if you're designing both the rim and mouthpiece from scratch, vs modifying a physically existing mouthpiece. At some point you might reach perfect comfort while having removed enough material that the mouthpiece does not play as good anymore.

Largely depends on specifics of the situation. I don't modify mouthpieces from other brands so not something I'd go wrapping my head around.

OK.
So OP asked specifically about modifying an existing mouthpiece, a respectable and highly experienced member shares his expert opinion on this, you respond by calling their opinion nonsense and saying how much better you could do it, before admitting that you actually haven't given it much thought because it's not something you do....I'm getting this right?

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:55 pm

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:00 pm


Largely depends on specifics of the situation. I don't modify mouthpieces from other brands so not something I'd go wrapping my head around.

OK.
So OP asked specifically about modifying an existing mouthpiece, a respectable and highly experienced member shares his expert opinion on this, you respond by calling their opinion nonsense and saying how much better you could do it, before admitting that you actually haven't given it much thought because it's not something you do....I'm getting this right?

? I suggested having it done by someone that is a mouthpiece maker and does that kind of thing, there are many. How does that have anything to do with my thoughts on rim design?

The thing to take away from all this discussion is that if you decide to do mouthpiece modifications on your own, even with all the comments on rim effects from everybody here, you will be making a bunch of paperweights as you stumble around. Even using a good maker to do the modifications you may still wind up with a lot of paperweights.

The advent of 3D printing enables you to try some profiles out before committing them to metal. This is something we never had in the past. In stead of a lot of expensive paperweights we have less expensive 3D prints of failed designs. I don't think a 3D printed mouthpiece is a permanent solution, though. In many cases the print is not strong enough or durable enough to be a final part.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:47 pm The thing to take away from all this discussion is that if you decide to do mouthpiece modifications on your own, even with all the comments on rim effects from everybody here, you will be making a bunch of paperweights as you stumble around. Even using a good maker to do the modifications you may still wind up with a lot of paperweights.

The advent of 3D printing enables you to try some profiles out before committing them to metal. This is something we never had in the past. In stead of a lot of expensive paperweights we have less expensive 3D prints of failed designs. I don't think a 3D printed mouthpiece is a permanent solution, though. In many cases the print is not strong enough or durable enough to be a final part.

I’ve got a couple of expensive paperweights. But I also lucked out on the last one. I sent a mouthpiece I liked except for the uncomfortable rim to KT custom mouthpiece (Ken Titmus) and got a comfortable mouthpiece that I still like.

How nice to be accused of hokum. Never happened before. I really couldn't care less what you think. Don't have a horse in this race as I won't do work for strangers. I do things for friends as favours. In the past I've done rims for Rath and Symington. People seem to like them, but it's only a bit of fun. My income is from playing.

blast wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:04 am How nice to be accused of hokum. Never happened before. I really couldn't care less what you think. Don't have a horse in this race as I won't do work for strangers. I do things for friends as favours. In the past I've done rims for Rath and Symington. People seem to like them, but it's only a bit of fun. My income is from playing.

Cool, well you have fun with that.

Wow man. Uncalled for. Wasn't that comment directed at someone other than you?

Apparently some of us pass through life with a chip on our shoulders.

I sincerely hope that one of the most obnoxious posters I've come across on this forum does not drive away one of the most respected and valued. It's unfortunate that LiBrassCo doesn't have the class to say something like "I'm not sure I agree with you but I'd like to have a discussion about that and see where it leads."

SteveM wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:06 pm I sincerely hope that one of the most obnoxious posters I've come across on this forum does not drive away one of the most respected and valued. It's unfortunate that LiBrassCo doesn't have the class to say something like "I'm not sure I agree with you but I'd like to have a discussion about that and see where it leads."

Not my style bud.

The funniest part of all this is if I disagree with something someone says it's cool to denegrate me, but if I for a second assert myself at all I'm the bad guy.

Fellas, relax yourselves, it's an online forum! I'm sorry my Times New Roman hurts so much!

Moderators???

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:30 pm The funniest part of all this is if I disagree with something someone says it's cool to denegrate me, but if I for a second assert myself at all I'm the bad guy.

Fellas, relax yourselves, it's an online forum! I'm sorry my Times New Roman hurts so much!

I think it’s because no one likes you picking a fight with someone every chance you can doesn’t get you many friends… and it’s an interesting way to give your business a reputation

For those who are relatively new to this forum and can't readily identify with Elow's level of irritation, allow me to direct you to this gem of a previous episode of "A Masterclass in How To Alienate Potential Clients":

https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=16316

I really hate the way this thread went which could have been an interesting topic to discuss. And I even kind of regret I initially posted anything. There is simply no point in discussing with this guy. As this conversation went so wrong I even felt the need to send a message to blast yesterday night to make sure he sees that my thinking was totally different. I am absolutely not afraid of confrontation, but I don't see the point of this kind of argument here.

I guess my experience playing on both a large shank 5GB and 5G mouthpiece isn't really relevant? Identical mouthpieces except for the rim. 5GB was a bunch more "comfy" due to the super rounded rim, but I played far better on the 5G. I also sounded better on it as well, even though the cup, backbore, etc should be identical. These were both from the CNC days. I mean, unless you want to question the ears of my professor at college?

While I'm not not completely on board with concepts such as the 'alpha angle' on the edge of a rim and such, "feels good" vs "plays better" is a well-known conundrum that will probably never go away.

Blast,
Well, I, for one, am interested in what you do, when modifying rims. I've also done a fair bit of experimentation with mouthpieces, including making old school form tools for rims and cups from tool steel rod stock. But I'm sure I could learn something from you.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:23 am Blast,
Well, I, for one, am interested in what you do, when modifying rims. I've also done a fair bit of experimentation with mouthpieces, including making old school form tools for rims and cups from tool steel rod stock. But I'm sure I could learn something from you.

Me too! We don't all have to agree here all the time, but how about not behaving like Marjorie Taylor Greene! A little civility goes a long way, especially for someone who has a business that is being promoted here.

Jim Scott

I'm sure I have nothing of value for people like Matthew who are highly skilled engineers. What I do is only useful in prototyping and rim copying. I work with files and finish with abrasive papers, then polishes. All freehand. Many years ago at an ITF , I shared a breakfast table with a very well known mouthpiece maker. I was helping Mick Rath with some of his mouthpieces at the time and admitted my methods to the mouthpiece man. He laughed and told me he had worked the same way himself on occasion. My thumb is my measuring device....I know when I have a good copy. Bill Symington copied one of my MV Bach pieces....the CNC company he used could not believe the Bach rim shape was correct and put a simple curve on the prototype rim. That was awful. I hand copied the Bach rim on the prototype and sent it back. The maker finally took the hint and got it right.
A bit of fun for me

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:45 am While I'm not not completely on board with concepts such as the 'alpha angle' on the edge of a rim and such, "feels good" vs "plays better" is a well-known conundrum that will probably never go away.

I mean, you can not be on board with the terminology, sure, but even if you want to call it the wumbo-slope, there is a definitive point where the rim stops curving along the rim profile, and begins curving in a different direction into the cup profile. You have to take an arbitrary but small distance from that point into the cup and that is your alpha angle. Here, credit to GR:
High alpha on left, low on right.

That really is a measurable difference between mouthpieces. High alpha angle can exist on deep cup instruments too, you just need to add an additional angle into the cup.