TromboneChat

Hi Everyone,

Please be patient with this post. It starts with a health tangent, but eventually focuses on equipment modification.

I recently had a ganglion cyst removed from the back of my left hand. While removing the cyst, the surgeon filed down a bone spur that apparently was the reason for the cyst forming. While the surgery seems to be a success and my hand is getting stronger every day, it has certainly been a inconvenience.

While recovering from the surgery, I wanted to get back to playing as soon as possible. Being that I had surgery on my left hand before, I already had a definite step-by-step game plan for getting back to playing my double-valve bass. I started playing for three days on an alto trombone while wearing an oven mitt on my left hand. Yes, an oven mitt! The oven mitt prevented me from instinctively moving any individual fingers too aggressively which would tug at the tendons that were impacted by the surgery. Once I was able to hold the alto trombone without an oven mitt a couple of days, I moved to a straight tenor trombone for about five days. My first couple of days on tenor involved altering my grip and placing my thumb under the slide-to-bell-section knurled ring. I moved my thumb to the "normal" location for the next three days.

I am currently in my fourth day of playing my lightest single valve bass trombone, which is a Bach LT50G. I am able to hold it with the "traditional" grip, but I can only play for about 9 or 10 minutes and then my left hand needs several minutes of rest. Because I have several bass trombone gigs starting in early March, I wanted to practice music that has the complete bass trombone register as soon as possible......this includes low B-naturals. Thus, I immediately went to playing the instrument using the E-pull.

Playing "full time" on an E-pull has proven to be very interesting. I have used E-pull before, but it has only been for sections in the music where I have briefly needed it. I have always played with the normal F-attachment and pulled to E for the short sections of music that had low Bs and Cs. Playing FULL TIME with E-pull is forcing me to rethink patterns that involve 7th & 6th position patterns ("B to C" and "E to F"). These are similar to the patterns that I have targeted in 6th & 5th position on a single valve horn for decades, With the E-pull, they are just transposed down a chromatic step.

I digress.....now to the subject at hand. As many of you probably know, the E-pull on a Bach 50 traditional wrap is not full length. The pull ends up being about 1/2 to 5/8 inch too short. Thus, the low B-naturals need to lipped down and other accommodations need to be made. My question is: Has anyone ever made any of the following equipment adjustments/modifications on a Bach 50 single valve traditional wrap in order to make playing FULL TIME E-pull more practical?

*A plug-in tuning slide that is about 1 inch longer that makes the E-pull easier to achieve with some tubing to spare.

*A very long (11.5 to 12 inches) plug-in E-pull tuning slide that is inserted in the outer tuning slide tubes completely. This would keep a larger part of the tuning slide closer to the intended .593 bore.

*A custom wrap in which the wide 180 degree F-tubing crook is shortened and the inner and outer legs of the F-tuning slide are lengthened. This would make both the F and the E-pull equally usable and in-tune.

Actually, the same questions could be asked about a Bach 42 in traditional wrap as well. Again, sorry for the hand surgery tangent. Thanks for your thoughts!

I played a 50B full time for a while as well. Honestly, I just faked the Bs (with false tones), and only pulled to E when I had enough low Cs to warrant it. It was valuable experience with slide technique and learning new positions... but I don't miss those days either.

Do you have an ergobone? It feels like it would be just the right solution to your current problem, and you can probably use your normal bass.

Don’t have an ErgoBone. Never had problems holding any trombone. However, I was looking at them online about a week ago! So far, the hand surgery rehab has gone well. If I run into problems, ErgoBone will certainly be an option.

I am VERY concerned about my left hand when I start playing euphonium again this spring. In recent years, it has been tougher to hold the old Besson at the 2 or 3 hour summer concert band rehearsals. This surgery might be the thing that forces me to use ErgoBrass for euphonium.

Just saying that the Ergobone will get you back on the big horn right away (assuming your fingers have the flexibility for the 2nd valve). It's not just something to hold the horn up, it also takes a lot of stress out of your hands.

I used an ergo brass for euph when I was working on masters in it. Was one of the best purchases I’ve made. I’ve actually recently been thinking of using one for bass so I can use the valves without needing to worry about weight. I highly recommend it for euph at the very least.

It wasn’t my horn, but I know someone who had a 50B with a tuning slide extension similar to the Duo Gracie one… so it had the original crook inserted into an extension. They had a bent tube at the top so it didn’t stick out too far too.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:33 pm Just saying that the Ergobone will get you back on the big horn right away (assuming your fingers have the flexibility for the 2nd valve). It's not just something to hold the horn up, it also takes a lot of stress out of your hands.

The cyst was on the tendon that controls motion of the middle finger. Isolated movement of that finger is still a problem. Thus, I will probably remain on a single-valve bass for a while.

Still, I am really thinking about the ErgoBone. It looks like the ErgoBone "full set" includes the chair support and the harness support. Not a bad deal. After all, I am not getting any younger!

Back to my original inquiry..... Aiden, it sounds like you have never pulled to E and left it there for days or weeks at a time. You imply that you more commonly used "false tones" or "fake tones" for the C's and B's on a single valve horn.

I am wondering if there are any players who pull to E and that has become their primary equipment choice. Maybe there are just no players who do this? If there are people who do it on a single valve Bach 50, how have you made the equipment more cooperative in terms of tuning?

I only pulled to E for lots of Cs. With the music I played, it was simply not viable to leave it out at E all the time and get around the horn in a functional way.

I do heartily recommend the Ergobone- I haven't used mine in a while but it's always ready to go if I have to play a stupidly long concert or practice session.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:01 pm ...
I am wondering if there are any players who pull to E and that has become their primary equipment choice. Maybe there are just no players who do this? If there are people who do it on a single valve Bach 50, how have you made the equipment more cooperative in terms of tuning?

I know of one person, but he's not available. If you look at the picture of the Boston Symphony Brass from 1921 (I think it's on Doug Yeo's site; I use it as my wallpaper so I can probably show it if you are interested) August Mausbach, 2nd Trombone, played an instrument that was in Bb/E. I also have a picture of Principal Carl Hampe with a similar instrument. So at one time orchestral players used a Bb/E trombone instead of Bb/F. Side note: Bass trombone Leroy Kenfield played a Bb/F large bore instrument.

I have a colleague in Boston who is primarily a tenor player but used to do a lot of bass trombone playing on shows. He has a Mt Vernon 50B that was open-wrapped at some point, and he always plays it with a custom-made slide for flat E. He spends a LOT of time using long positions, since he doesn't even have E and B in first. It seems a little crazy to me, but it works for him.

Do you really need the B for the gigs you have coming up? If not, I would suggest a different strategy: pull the F slide out far enough that you get a C in the staff all the way against the bumper. On a Bach, this should give you a good low C in 7th, and you'll have to play low Fs in 6th. B in the staff should be in normal 2nd, E below just in from there a bit. Low Eb will probably be dead center in 3rd position, Bb above just a little out from there. Then you'll have to do the detective work for D/A and Db/Ab, but they are pretty easy to find and get used to.

I learned this from observing my teacher, Ray Premru, who played his entire career primarily on a Holton 169 single, and would pull his F slide a couple of inches when demonstrating excerpts like Heldenleben for me. I practice this alternate valve tuning on my single valves quite a bit.

I also practice the false tone B in trigger 3rd (and C in trigger 2nd), and I find that helps my tone production quite a lot when I go back to the double.

All that said, if you look at the pictures of the traditional wrap bass trombone Matthew Walker has built for himself - and old Conn 72Hs for that matter - you'll see that the geometry is exactly what you've described above:

*A custom wrap in which the wide 180 degree F-tubing crook is shortened and the inner and outer legs of the F-tuning slide are lengthened. This would make both the F and the E-pull equally usable and in-tune.

If you have a good tech and the right parts, this would not be a difficult modification. Why Bach didn't do it in the first place is a mystery to me.

I had an Eb slide made. It's like bE except it gives you notes you can use in 1st position. A steady diet of 6th and 7th positions do get tiring. But if you're a steady single player you might already be used to it.

Thanks for the input everyone!

The slide patterns with E-pull are rather awkward, especially for scale passages. Even when the valve is used to shorten distances, the benefit is only about 1 to 1.5 positions. Take G Major Scale as an example: G in 4th, A in trigger 3.6 or 3.7 and then B and C in 7th and 6th. Only slightly better than placing B in trigger 1st and then C in 6th.

Bruce, I have found some old photos of those BSO players. It is difficult for me to determine the tuning of the particular wraps in those photos because there are multiple loops involved. What I find interesting about your post is that the 1st and 2nd players had E-pulls and the bass player used the F-attachment.

Gabe, I am actually using a lot of low B-naturals on a recital on March 5th. It is a brass quintet performance and has a mixture of bass trombone and tuba parts in the book. I do occasionally play some tuba selections up an octave, but I am trying to be as fluent as possible with the low stuff. Keeping the tuba pieces in the lower octave is a challenge I embraced when I switched to bass trombone in the quintet a couple of years ago. Some of the tuba stuff is ridiculous (never goes higher than B-flat or C below the bass clef staff), but we are NOT scheduled to perform any of those charts.

I am very fluent at playing (with F-attachment) fake C's and B's below the staff. I usually use trigger 2.5 for C and trigger 4th for B. However, I have found that if I play a single valve bass for too long, I start to default those fake positions when I switch back to having a double-valve horn in my hands. I think it is because I used those positions a tenor player for decades as well. Playing with E-pull is working well for me because it is forcing me to really concentrate and listen carefully as I play. Because the positions and patterns are at little more awkward, I am hoping that the E-pull positions will not become "subconsciously automatic." Thus, the final transition to the double valve horn in a week or two might be easier and faster. Some might consider it a foolish plan, but I am having a good time with it for now.

I do know about the single valve models with long pull that Matthew Walker has built and shown here on TromboneChat.......nice looking horns. That is exactly the type of design that I was thinking for the Bach 50 traditional wrap. That's why I am wondering if anyone has done it on a Bach 50......just makes sense to me. I am a brass tech (my evening and weekend job) and I am thinking that type of construction might be a great way to rebuild this single rotor section.

All of this will likely be a moot point in about two weeks, but it has been a fun adventure. Like I have stated, before this I have only used E-pull for a few measures here and there and have never stayed with it for days at a time.

You may notice that Conn and Holton designed their F wraps to create a longer loop for the E Pull. They also made the slides longer to help reach the outer trigger positions.

Note: I have a scan of a trombone method by Carl Hampe (from a copy given to me by his great grandson, also Carl Hampe, who is an amateur trombone player). In it there is a paragraph describing an E attachment trombone. I was trying to extract the paragraph to post here, but the scan won't let me extract any parts -- but I'll keep trying.

I’ve often considered taking the wide look on the Bach single and turning that into a second slide ala King and Yamaha horns. There’s a couple of inches of straight tubing that could be used as the secondary slide.** This may help as then you don’t have to source longer tuning slide legs, you might be able to do it with some leftover parts you have lying around.

Cheers,
Andy

** this would also be an AWESOME hack to allow for the insertion of a second drop in valve.

I’m glad your recovery is going well. It sounds like you took a reasonable approach for returning to playing.

Here’s another vote for the Ergobone. You also mentioned the ergobrass for euphonium. If you’ve already got left-hand problems, using an ergobrass device is a way to either a. give your hand/arm additional time to recovery and develop strength, or b. save yourself, your hand, and your arm from pain by using it full-time.

I would HIGHLY recommend getting both ergobrass devices before your quintet recital in March. Pain increases tension and stress, which then decrease focus and stamina. Performance = potential minus distraction. Pain can be a HUGE distraction. Sometimes, throwing money at a problem can help.

If it were me, I’d wait to build any new crooks until after the show. It takes me a while to learn and be excellent at using new equipment, but that’s just me. If you’re already comfortable using falset tones (factitious tones, lip bends) down to low C and B, why not stick with it? Unless you have to play a loud or a soft sustained low C or B, not many people will notice, except fellow trombonists. And they will be AMAZED at your facility at the end of the slide. You could then proudly (if fictitiously) tell them, “I learned it from George.”

Hello all.
Hello Brian D.

Personally , I think that the E tuned single valve does not allow to play a really in tune low B .
In my opinion , also a "flat"E tuned will leave this note (low B) a little sharp . To have a full tuned low B ( in a 7th position) , I think that we need a valve tuned in Eb .

I play a King Duo Gravis bass trbn , F /"flat" E ( I have the D crook also) .
Playing in Jazz Big Band , when low B are request , I tune the F valve in E , and the second valve (dependant) in Eb . So , in a bit flatter 7th position , I have a good low B .

As soon as possible , I re-tune the valves to the original configuration (F / "flat" E) , because I think that one of the most useful thing , when you play bass trbn chair , is that you can play a C in the staff and a low F in 1st position with the F valve , and also B in b2 position , Bb in bb3 position , ecc . This match a lot with the musical lines that usually are given to this horn ( playing in the bottom of the staff also ) .

About the Ergobone , I have one : I think that is a very good idea , it works .

Best regards
Giancarlo

Brian, it is possible to modify a standard Bach 50. The large 180 degree "D" shaped branch can be shortened quite a bit, then, make new F tuning slide tubes adding that length back in. Easy.

Giancarlo, The horns I made work just fine playing low B with an E pull. It really isn't rocket science, it just has to be a decision made by the designer/maker. I don't have either of them at home with me, but will make a short video demo tomorrow.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 12:51 pm Brian, it is possible to modify a standard Bach 50. The large 180 degree "D" shaped branch can be shortened quite a bit, then, make new F tuning slide tubes adding that length back in. Easy.

Yes. Looking at the Bach 50 traditional wrap, there is a lot of extra tubing in that large “D” shaped tubing that can be taken out and “relocated” in the straight legs of the F tuning slide. Should make it a more usable E-pull. It will also make it look less “Bachish.”

I always wondered why Bach used a dual-radius crook on that large “D” branch (in a traditional wrap) while other brands like Conn used a single-radius. In the past, I had hypothesized that Bach used a dual-radius crook to give the attachment notes more focus. When measuring the tubing I realized how silly that theory was. The straight legs that are on the Bach traditional wraps are strictly for bracing…..each side has two solder points.

I have rebuilt dozens of those wraps and never realized that particular part was designed that way for construction reasons. Better late than never realizing it!

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:43 pm The straight legs that are on the Bach traditional wraps are strictly for bracing…..each side has two solder points.

I have rebuilt dozens of those wraps and never realized that particular part was designed that way for construction reasons.

Yes, it was obviously considered desirable to make the paralleling of the bell section a 2D problem, not a 3D one as it is on the Conn/Holton design with the rearmost bracing diagonal to the narrow F loop outers. Whether or not that proves simpler in practice is another issue.

Hello Matthew .

I trust and respect you . For sure you made some particolar design , that works this way for your horns . I would like to give a try to yours wonderful bass trbns !

Anyway , I am a bit surprised about playing a low B with a E tuned valve ; in general , we know that , with a double trigger in D , we play the low B in b5 position ; with Eb double trigger , we have the same low B in 7th position (same horns #7 position) ; how we can have this tone with a E tuned valve (or double valve) in the same 7th position (or b7th position) ?

Regards to everyone
Giancarlo

GGJazz wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:40 pm Hello Matthew .

I trust and respect you . For sure you made some particolar design , that works this way for your horns . I would like to give a try to yours wonderful bass trbns !

Anyway , I am a bit surprised about playing a low B with a E tuned valve ; in general , we know that , with a double trigger in D , we play the low B in b5 position ; with Eb double trigger , we have the same low B in 7th position (same horns #7 position) ; how we can have this tone with a E tuned valve (or double valve) in the same 7th position (or b7th position) ?

Regards to everyone
Giancarlo

With a D attachment, B is in "4th" position:

D-1
Db-2
C-3
B-4

But becuase the instrument is longer, so too are the distance of the positions. That's why an F valve can't play B:

F-1
E-2
Eb-3
D-4
Db-5
C-6
B-7

Technically, if the slide had a full 7 positions in F, you'd have a B. But since the handslide is in Bb, it's a touch too short. However, if the handslide length is appropriately long, with an "E" pull, you can get a B in 6th position --- but because your positions are longer on an "E" instrument, it woudl be right about where 7th position is on an Bb instrument.

Hello Matt.

When I wrote about positions , I always refer to regular Bb horn' slide positions ; so , when I wrote that with the D attachments B is in b5 position , I means a Bb horn' slide b5 position , that is called 4th thinkin about "D horn' slide positions " . I really do not know what the best way to talk about this can be ; maybe my mistake !

Regards
Giancarlo

Yeah that makes sense I’ve seen it referred to. It usually is obvious what the intent is - I’m not splitting hairs in this case, just clarifying that it is possible to get an in tune B with an “E” attachment!

I've used the convention of T for single trigger and TT for double trigger. Another possible convention could use F for F-attachment positions and D for double trigger positions. This second convention allows for using 2nd valve only (Gb), Bb/F/Eb (Eb), indy Bb/F/G 2nd valve (G), etc.