TromboneChat

Hi! I play on Yamaha 52L, I feel it right in terms of cup and rime size but it play a bit tight because it is 0.279 and I always plays like 0.283/0.284 throat. I also have Yamaha 58L , of course this is small bass trombone mouthpiece, it plays a bit dark on tenor because cup depth. It is about 0.284 (or just bit more). I think larger throat gives me more freedom, and large sound, without compromise my playing, wich I'm looking for. Do you think could be good idea, put 58L shank on 52L ?

There are a lot of mouthpieces between a 58 and a 52 in every aspect. Some people like myself prefer rims similar to the 58 in side, but otherwise a “tenor” underpart. If you’re like me the “large sound” comes from a rim that works better with your physiology, not because of a few +/-.005” throat size.

Id personally recommend finding something that suits you as far as rim, but might be a touch shallower. But there’s nothing wrong per se with a 58 on a tenor.

Thanks for the comment, but I'm fine with rim and cup, just the throat is bit tight. I played just little bit for a small period in the bass, on tenor it was just test. I know that because I play this size for many years, and it works for me. I know is the throat beacuse I played always large throat and they work for my way of playing. I like the shape of rim because is flat, and feels so stable compare to other brands.

I'd probably play something like a Griego Artist 1D or 1E.

I'm fine with rim size, as I said! I love Griego and I have one, the rim is just too round for me. Experimenting with flat rim I prefer them compare to round.

Danitrb wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:40 pm I'm fine with rim size, as I said! I love Griego and I have one, the rim is just too round for me. Experimenting with flat rim I prefer them compare to round.

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Danitrb wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:35 pm Thanks for the comment, but I'm fine with rim and cup, just the throat is bit tight. I played just little bit for a small period in the bass, on tenor it was just test. I know that because I play this size for many years, and it works for me. I know is the throat beacuse I played always large throat and they work for my way of playing. I like the shape of rim because is flat, and feels so stable compare to other brands.

Maybe, but there is a lot different between the 52 and the 58 that isn't the throat. A lot of people describe playing a larger rim as you do. In either case, this isn't a hard mod. Putting the 58 shank on a 52 won't make much sense because the depths are different (the deeper the cup, the shorter the shank so the overall is usually very similar). However, having a good mouthpiece maker expand your throat is a super cheap operation (usually <$50, sometimes even cheaper). You can have them expand it and try it before they plate to save costs as well... or just not replate if you don't care about the raw brass inside the cup. A Yamaha 52 is pretty inexpensive to replace if you decide it didn't help.

Yamaha 58L Throat: 7.40mm / 0.291"
Yamaha 52L Throat: 7.11mm / 0.280"
If you can find these mouthpieces:
Yamaha 53L Throat: 7.11mm / 0.280"
Yamaha 54L Throat: 7.11mm / 0.280"
Yamaha 55L Throat: 7.11mm / 0.280"

Similar Throats, progressively larger Cups

Expand the throat is work I would avoid. Because it so simple go too larger and make mouthpiece unplayable. Change shank is more secure and also cheap, as "experiment"

Yamaha 58L is 7.25mm on website. Others mouthpiece have same throat compare to 52.

If you want to "put a small bass shank on a tenor mouthpiece", I'd start by expanding the throat, as suggested. The end game would be putting a bass shank on a tenor mouthpiece anyway, which would completely remove the throat, the shank, and everything else you might mess up. Boring it out would be way cheaper.

If that fails, then have someone like Bob Reeves thread the cup to take screw shanks, and send them whatever bass piece you want to have mated to it.

That's going to be expensive, you'll likely ruin your tenor piece, and you'll definitely ruin the bass piece. But it will definitely have a bass shank.

The premise of this post is kind of weird. How can you play one mouthpiece, but always play throat specs that don't exist in that mouthpiece? Are you actually a bass player and that is just the tenor mouthpiece you like?

Danitrb wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:54 pm Yamaha 58L is 7.25mm on website. Others mouthpiece have same throat compare to 52.

I've had two different Yamaha 58L mouthpieces. Both Throats measured 7.40 mm / 0.291"
Interestingly, their Cup inner diameters were different - one was ~26.9mm, the other ~27.2mm.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:12 pm If you want to "put a small bass shank on a tenor mouthpiece", I'd start by expanding the throat, as suggested. The end game would be putting a bass shank on a tenor mouthpiece anyway, which would completely remove the throat, the shank, and everything else you might mess up. Boring it out would be way cheaper.

If that fails, then have someone like Bob Reeves thread the cup to take screw shanks, and send them whatever bass piece you want to have mated to it.

That's going to be expensive, you'll likely ruin your tenor piece, and you'll definitely ruin the bass piece. But it will definitely have a bass shank.

The premise of this post is kind of weird. How can you play one mouthpiece, but always play throat specs that don't exist in that mouthpiece? Are you actually a bass player and that is just the tenor mouthpiece you like?

In other words, I like 52 but I would it with larger throat, because I always played with 0.284 size and work best for me. With smaller throat, I feels a bit tight. Otherwise great mp!

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:28 pm

Danitrb wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:54 pm Yamaha 58L is 7.25mm on website. Others mouthpiece have same throat compare to 52.

I've had two different Yamaha 58L mouthpieces. Both Throats measured 7.40 mm / 0.291"
Interestingly, their Cup inner diameters were different - one was ~26.9mm, the other ~27.2mm.

This happen many many times. Maybe I will try to buy another 52 and hoping It will feel bit larger and free blowing than actual.

Most people seem to think "feeling tight" means the throat is too small - but that's rarely the case. There are several other aspects of a mouthpiece that affect it feeling too tight... or too open.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:41 pm Most people seem to think "feeling tight" means the throat is too small - but that's rarely the case. There are several other aspects of a mouthpiece that affect it feeling too tight... or too open.

Agree for sure. However everytime I play mp with smaller throat I have this feeling, less flexibility, less sound, more difficult in playing.

I bet all of those mouthpieces with a smaller throat are also smaller other ways. It's not the throat.

I mean not only the throat but for sure also shank bore and backbore.

58 is a well-balanced mouthpiece with respect to throat, backbore and cup depth/diameter. Good choice if using on a tenor.

The #1 issue, in my experience, besides guarding against a dullish tone, in using a “bass mouthpiece on a tenor” is Intonation. Generally, you will not be able to get a total handle on intonation by simply tuning once or twice near the beginning of a practice or rehearsal. It takes time over a number of practices.

A nearly wide open backbore (found on quite a few bass pieces) vs a semi-wide (used by the 58) can be a major contributing factor in creating the funky intonation readings. Varying intonation in these circumstances can become more discernible when your embouchure tires.

For example, using some of the larger tenor trombone/ euphonium Wicks (eg 3AL) with bass-like barrel backbores, large throats and cup depths is likely to be very testy intonation-wise for many folks. Adding to all this are tubing size and lead pipe differences across horns, and air flow requirements and personal air capabilities (e.g. a lot more air required with AL-style Wicks).

58 is a good start test. Keep it for a while. The nice full sound, and seemingly easy air flow, is not worth it if you are a 1/4 tone sharp or flat in any part of the “full register” of your instrument.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:41 pm Most people seem to think "feeling tight" means the throat is too small - but that's rarely the case. There are several other aspects of a mouthpiece that affect it feeling too tight... or too open.

To the original poster... Doug knows his stuff. Trust his wisdom and experience. His setups were a revelation to me... and that was with 30 years of playing experience.

Thinking about a mouthpiece as individual components with considering the greater system will miss the mark.

Thanks to everyone, I'm fine now.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:41 pm Most people seem to think "feeling tight" means the throat is too small - but that's rarely the case. There are several other aspects of a mouthpiece that affect it feeling too tight... or too open.

Such as ?

RustBeltBass wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:54 am

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:41 pm Most people seem to think "feeling tight" means the throat is too small - but that's rarely the case. There are several other aspects of a mouthpiece that affect it feeling too tight... or too open.

Such as ?

Backbore is a pretty important factor for how open it feels and how it responds and sounds in the end. Bass and tenor pieces can have a similar throat, but feel totally different not just because of rim size and cup format, but because of very different backbores. There are large tenor pieces with what seems to be a bass throat that absolutely do not play as open as a bass piece.

Openness or tightness is largely felt in rim size and how open the cup is just below the rim. Regardless of the throat or backbore.

Even the width of the rim itself can affect the openness feel. A thin rim will often feel more open than a wide rim.

It's mostly about how free the lips are to vibrate. If they are cramped by either the inside or outside of the rim, it will feel tighter.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 11:03 am Openness or tightness is largely felt in rim size and how open the cup is just below the rim. Regardless of the throat or backbore.

Even the width of the rim itself can affect the openness feel. A thin rim will often feel more open than a wide rim.

It's mostly about how free the lips are to vibrate. If they are cramped by either the inside or outside of the rim, it will feel tighter.

Exactly

/Tom

I'm no techinician, but surely there are a so many variations that affect a mouthpiece and how it feels and sounds. At this point, I think that, for me surely, the choice is based on a mouthpiece that does not facilitate a particular aspect of my playing, but is very comfortable and gives me very good standard in all aspects of my playing (range and dynamics ), but it doesn't facilitate one. I simply have to practice to constantly improve. For example, if I would have excellent high register I could choice simply medium shallow cup but what about the rest of playing? So, based on this thought I prefered have something in the middle of the road, in order to have equal quality for all my aspect of playing. Let me know what are yours thoughts on this!

How about Greg black 5G or 4.5G-5G? Maybe with lightweight option? Greg's tenor piece have large throat (0.283") and fairly flat rim.
Or you may try Doug's piece , too. Doug's tenor piece have "standard"(I don't remember exact number) throat but feels fairly open, especially when coupled with 9 shanks. And I don't feel cramped when playing Doug's mouthpieces compared to more large throated mouthpieces(like GB)

Doldom wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:39 pm How about Greg black 5G or 4.5G-5G? Maybe with lightweight option? Greg's tenor piece have large throat (0.283") and fairly flat rim.
Or you may try Doug's piece , too. Doug's tenor piece have "standard"(I don't remember exact number) throat but feels fairly open, especially when coupled with 9 shanks. And I don't feel cramped when playing Doug's mouthpieces compared to more large throated mouthpieces(like GB)

As I said, I'm fine. Thank you!

Danitrb wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:13 am

Doldom wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:39 pm How about Greg black 5G or 4.5G-5G? Maybe with lightweight option? Greg's tenor piece have large throat (0.283") and fairly flat rim.
Or you may try Doug's piece , too. Doug's tenor piece have "standard"(I don't remember exact number) throat but feels fairly open, especially when coupled with 9 shanks. And I don't feel cramped when playing Doug's mouthpieces compared to more large throated mouthpieces(like GB)

As I said, I'm fine. Thank you!

Good to hear you’re fine. Let us know what you did. I’m taking bets.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:45 am

Danitrb wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:13 am

As I said, I'm fine. Thank you!

Good to hear you’re fine. Let us know what you did. I’m taking bets.

I just bought another 52, and for some reason it sounded different than the previous one. It just sounds bigger and warmer in comparison. As Doug mentioned, it maybe feels more open, because the rim seems slighty larger. I will never know what is the year of production of both. But I'm not surprised there are differences. There are differences in mouthpiece brands wich cost 4 times more and I've experienced this.

Doldom wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:39 pm Or you may try Doug's piece , too. Doug's tenor piece have "standard"(I don't remember exact number) throat but feels fairly open, especially when coupled with 9 shanks. And I don't feel cramped when playing Doug's mouthpieces compared to more large throated mouthpieces(like GB)

I play Doug Elliott's LT pieces. For what its worth, I measure his throats at
• 6.35mm for D & E Cups and Shanks
and
• 6.63mm for F & G Cups and Shanks

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:51 pm Yamaha 58L Throat: 7.40mm / 0.291"
Yamaha 52L Throat: 7.11mm / 0.280"
If you can find these mouthpieces:
Yamaha 53L Throat: 7.11mm / 0.280"
Yamaha 54L Throat: 7.11mm / 0.280"
Yamaha 55L Throat: 7.11mm / 0.280"

Similar Throats, progressively larger Cups

Yamaha 55L is very much a 3G cup diameter/4G cup depth model. The moderate throat, combined with the slightly more funnel (vs bowl) Yamaha shape supports easy air flow, and a full (if not a bit, compact) dark sound. It effectively masks the articulation/attack part of the tone. By this, I mean what Marcellus coaches many players on….you have to attack, but you don’t want to (blatantly) “hear the attack.” It’s a well-balanced mouthpiece that plays (projects) better than the deeper, more bowl-shaped New Bach 3G offering. Weighs 5.4 oz, so in the realm of acceptable mass. Less than $60 purchase price.

jph wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:50 am Yamaha 55L is very much a 3G cup diameter/4G cup depth model. The moderate throat, combined with the slightly more funnel (vs bowl) Yamaha shape supports easy air flow, and a full (if not a bit, compact) dark sound. It effectively masks the articulation/attack part of the tone. ... It’s a well-balanced mouthpiece that plays (projects) better than the deeper, more bowl-shaped New Bach 3G offering.

All these hard-to-find large-bore Yamaha mouthpieces seem surprisingly easy to play. I've used them pretty successfully on a 0.554" bore Olds O-25 when I want a big "orchestral" sound (or am covering a bass trombone part).
Dimensions:
• Yamaha 53L: Cup I.D. 25.91mm / 1.020"; Throat: 7.11mm / 0.280" (cf. Bach 4G}
• Yamaha 54L: Cup I.D. 26.15mm / 1.030"; Throat: 7.11mm / 0.280" (~ 3½G)
• Yamaha 55L: Cup I.D. 26.35mm / 1.037"; Throat: 7.11mm / 0.280" (cf. Bach 3G)
Underappreciated!