TromboneChat

I'm wondering if any of you have experience comparing Griego Markey, Hecht and Pagano mouthpieces.

I'm curious about rim characteristics in particular.

Thanks!

Hecht is large and Schilke 60-esque from what I remember. Pagano is like an 85MD with a cushier rim and the Markey is like a Pagano on steroids, deeper cup, heavier and faster response.

GP pieces have a very round rim. Far more round than I like to deal with myself, not super wide either. Cups are pretty shallow, lots of focus in the backbore. They can really brighten up or tenorize a dull bass trombone.

Markey pieces are evolutions of the Laskey with similar sizes. Bit wider rim in a flatter profile, bit deeper cups, a little more normal "bass" characteristics but still on the Markey sound spectrum. Very even.

I've owned a GP6 and used it for a while, I am now playing a Markey 87 full time.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:29 pm GP pieces have a very round rim. Far more round than I like to deal with myself, not super wide either. Cups are pretty shallow, lots of focus in the backbore. They can really brighten up or tenorize a dull bass trombone.

Markey pieces are evolutions of the Laskey with similar sizes. Bit wider rim in a flatter profile, bit deeper cups, a little more normal "bass" characteristics but still on the Markey sound spectrum. Very even.

I've owned a GP6 and used it for a while, I am now playing a Markey 87 full time.

I also switched from a GP6 to a Markey 87

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:23 pm

I also switched from a GP6 to a Markey 87

My journey was a bit more complicated... but I did end up on the 87 eventually!

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:23 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:29 pm GP pieces have a very round rim. Far more round than I like to deal with myself, not super wide either. Cups are pretty shallow, lots of focus in the backbore. They can really brighten up or tenorize a dull bass trombone.

Markey pieces are evolutions of the Laskey with similar sizes. Bit wider rim in a flatter profile, bit deeper cups, a little more normal "bass" characteristics but still on the Markey sound spectrum. Very even.

I've owned a GP6 and used it for a while, I am now playing a Markey 87 full time.

I also switched from a GP6 to a Markey 87

I also played a GP6 before moving fully to the Markey 87!

My first real bass trombone mouthpiece was a Griego 1 and I played it for years happily. Never really enjoyed a Griego since until now with my Markey 90. I loved the ridiculous response of the Taylor 0 but for me it didn’t hold loud dynamics well enough.

The Markey 90 is a pretty fantastic mouthpiece with clear similarities to Laskey mouthpieces when it comes to response. I know the design of the GP series had influence on the Markey series but for me the difference is day and night. With the Markey series having relatively deep cups, the air flow is pretty awesome and it holds loud dynamics pretty well. Usually I play somewhat bigger mouthpieces but the 90 really helps me getting most of the things I like from the bigger stuff on it while adding clarity in the upper middle and high range.

I am somewhat intrigued to try the 93 but what makes me hesitant to do so is the fact that to my understanding this is not one of the pieces Mr. Markey mainly plays, so I wonder how much of his input is in those bigger sizes and hope they were not just added to cater to a bigger group of potential buyers. But the only way to find out is to actually try one. For now I am good on the 90 though.

I have put in a lot of time on the Markey 93. Considering that I am uncomfortable playing about 98% of the mouthpieces on the market, this mouthpiece is certainly a contender for me. Obviously, I like my mouthpieces on the large side.

The website states that the throat is .306 inch, but mine arrived with a throat that was right around .297 (a 19/64 inch drill bit fit VERY snug in the throat). The mouthpiece felt stuffy in the low register, but clear in the upper register. I opened the throat up to match the website size (.306 inch) and that made it play much more evenly. Rim shape feels pretty good and gives me great articulation clarity and ease in navigating large intervals and register changes. I had to add mass around the outside because it lost core and would brighten up quite a bit when I barked harder.

I'm not ready to make this my primary mouthpiece because it still brightens up a little too much for my taste on the loud playing. However, the mouthpiece is very close to what I am aiming for.....just not quite 100% there. I'm thinking it could be the slight bowl-shaped bottom of the cup that makes things brighten on loud playing, but that probably contributes to making it an efficient mouthpiece. I don't know if I want to change the bottom of the cup to a more funnel shape because all could be lost. For now, I keep it on my table top and occasionally compare it to my primary mouthpiece (a Doug Elliott).

Thanks for the responses.

I've ordered a Markey 87 and 90 to try out.

A little back ground: I played a Schilke 59 for a couple of decades and was happy with it until I spent a few years playing tuba full time in a brass quintet. After that I tried a few larger pieces and settled on the Hammond 21BL. The pandemic afforded me practice time to experiment and work on fundamentals and I found I liked many of the aspects of the 59 but it feels small and not free blowing enough. (I did pick up a Schilke Reichenbach a few months ago and love it much about it except it is just too small.)

Anyway, I'm hoping the 87 or 90 will find a sweet spot between the 59 and 21BL.

Thanks again for the feedback!

Bob

From .297 to .306 is .009”. That is .0762mm. That is insanely small. Like the thickness of a piece of paper small. That is margin of error on your measurements or not knowing where it was measured from territory.

.010" is the difference between a Bach 5 and a Bach 4 mouthpiece. We notice that.

It's a much larger percentage of the diameter of the aperture compared to the difference in a rim inside diameter.

That is an incremental different. From .01 to .009? That massive in its smallness.

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:29 pm From .297 to .306 is .009”. That is .0762mm. That is insanely small. Like the thickness of a piece of paper small. That is margin of error on your measurements or not knowing where it was measured from territory.

Uh ... not quite true.

Paper: Typical thickness of a piece of 20# bond paper = 0.004" (0.102mm) - as if it mattered in this instance.
Throat: Not an ambiguous measurement. This is the smallest diameter at the bottom of the mouthpiece cup. Pretty easily accurately measured with precision diameter rods (such as high quality drill bits) to, say ±0.002" (±0.05mm).

The difference between a 0.297" (7.54mm) throat and a 0.306" (7.77mm) throat is indeed small, but probably discernible to sensitive players like Crazy4Tbone86 - as his testimony suggests.

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:29 pm From .297 to .306 is .009”. That is .0762mm. That is insanely small. Like the thickness of a piece of paper small. That is margin of error on your measurements or not knowing where it was measured from territory.

What? .009" is 0.229mm, and as pointed out, the usual difference between mouthpiece "sizes" is 0.01". The Difference between a Hammond 11 and 12 is 0.01". The difference between a Griego Markey 85 and 87 is 0.01", and the 90 is another 0.01" bigger in rim diameter.

Also remember Laskey Mouthpieces usually were .2mm to .3mm per size increment, so I don't understand how you feel that that kind of difference in a throat would be negligible.

I did my math wrong. I did it backwards from mm to inches and that is where my measurements came from.
I worked with Christan and his CNC machines. I really do not believe that he is shipping mouthpieces off of spec. That is why I was trying to do the math to see how off it was being said. With my incorrect math being so small...
I just really do not think that product is being shipped out that far off spec. Sorry, but I know process and I was part of QC at Edwards (not Greigo!) and something like that would not ship. If it is that far off, please have contact Griego and let them know.

I have a Markey 87 and the rim is very wide and thin compared to my DW mouthpieces. I got it in gold and have been using it for the past few months and I love it.

A quote from Mr. Griego from another Markey related post in this forum.

“If you ever find a mouthpiece out of spec, please email me [email protected] to find out if it was intentional "misdirection" that we did in order to keep competitors from figuring out what we're making, or if it was a mistake. We are human and things can happen.“

RustBeltBass wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:35 am A quote from Mr. Griego from another Markey related post in this forum.

“If you ever find a mouthpiece out of spec, please email me [email protected] to find out if it was intentional "misdirection" that we did in order to keep competitors from figuring out what we're making, or if it was a mistake. We are human and things can happen.“

Hilarious. If his competitors are incapable of measuring a mouthpiece throat for themselves, he doesn't have much to worry about.

Since the measurements that I posted stirred much of this up, I feel the need to comment.

#1 Yes, most mouthpiece measurements, particularly rims, are usually differentiated by .01 (one hundredth) of an inch. However, the difference of .001 or .002 in certain places on a mouthpiece (for me, the rim and throat) can be felt by an experienced musician. I have some mouthpieces in which the throat was opened by .002 or .003 inch, and it made a huge difference for me. The mouthpiece went from “I must be careful not to overblow”to “I am free to make music.” Granted, I am probably a little more “equipment sensitive“ than most players.

A great example of only a few thousandths of an inch making a difference is in the trumpet world. A large number of trumpet mouthpieces come equipped with a #27 throat (.144 inch). Many trumpet players get the throat opened up to the #26 drill bit (.147 inch) because it makes a huge difference in how it feels. I know this because I do a few of those every year. Some trumpet players request a #25 throat (.149 inch). However, a few of those players felt that the extra couple of thousandths went too far. Thus, they had to buy a new mouthpiece and limit the alteration to the #26 bit. Occasionally, they buy a new mouthpiece (same model and size) and are frustrated because it is not exactly the same as the previous one……..and that leads to the next topic.

#2. Any manufacturer can make something that doesn’t match its specs. If the mouthpiece/horn works for you, don’t worry about the specs. If the equipment does not work for you, try something else. I just like to figure out what direction I am going. That is why I take measurements. I did not expect that Markey 93 to have a .297 throat. I took it to a tech buddy of mine and he got the same measurement. I am sure Christan Griego is aware of it because he posted a comment on another thread that mentioned it. I’m not going to make a big deal about it because I have seen all sorts of things that did not match specs through the years..water under the bridge. The Griego 93 has made my short list (I have about 200 mouthpieces that never made the cut stored in a nearby closet). The folks at Griego should be happy for every musician that says their mouthpiece has made their short list.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 6:21 pm
Throat: Not an ambiguous measurement. This is the smallest diameter at the bottom of the mouthpiece cup. Pretty easily accurately measured with precision diameter rods (such as high quality drill bits) to, say ±0.002" (±0.05mm).

Yes, exactly. While cup diameters and backbores have many variables involved for measurements. The throat is actually much easier to get an exact measurement. In addition to numerous drill bits, I have a large collection of graduated rods and graduated dent balls. Paired with a great micrometer, these tools can result in rather precise measurements.

I had a very short trial of a GP, and decided I wanted a smaller mouthpiece. My favorite sizes for Griego mouthpieces are 2 and 1.25. I still like my DE better though.

I've heard whispers of a Markey 82, which would probably be more up my alley if they decide to make them.

Druidman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:55 am I've heard whispers of a Markey 82, which would probably be more up my alley if they decide to make them.

In another thread someone had said they ordered one, probably by emailing Griego directly.

My favourite bass mouthpiece of all time was a regular Griego 0.5 Deco. A lot more comfortable and consistent than the Schilke D6.0 I use now.

Unfortunately I gave it to someone, full of confidence that I wouldn't be playing any more bass trombone anytime soon, and I was wrong. Guess I should probably buy another one. Very interested in the Hecht mouthpieces though. It's a dilemma down here in New Zealand, we often don't get a chance to try before we order.

This is copy and pasted from a Facebook group or two.
Been interested in trying out the Markey line of Griego mouthpieces but was sad that their smallest listed size was the 85. I played a Laskey 85 some years ago in undergrad and it was a great piece for me but learned it was too big for my playing/air stream. Since 2011 I’ve been playing the same Doug Elliot MB109 size mouthpiece. With my air stream etc ”smaller” mouthpieces work for me. I never had an issue with low register stuff. I later found out that there IS two smaller Markey sizes: 80 and 82. I had the chance to try both out. With just speculation, I guessed the 80 would be smaller than the 109 and the 82 bigger. Actually the 80 was still bigger. It’s been a while since I seriously tried another mouthpiece, the tone was more warm on both mouthpieces. Everything was bigger in cup rim and bore. I didn’t feel like the higher register was really sacrificed. I liked the sound that came out of the horn and I plan on buying the 80 soon. I didn’t get to have anyone else listen to me or try this in an ensemble.