TromboneChat

Hi all,

Lets say you find a Tenor Mouthpiece that fits your needs. In what way(s) (If any) should you use this tenor mouthpiece to help you find your alto piece(s)?

I am a believer in continuing inner rim diameter throughout all mouthpieces, but i'm wondering the other changes:

Should it be an exact replica to your tenor mouthpiece, but everything equally sized down?
Should it be totally different in size, balance?
Or should it be a mix & up to personal preference?

I'm curious what others have done, both good and bad, to give me some ideas on what to try.

Thanks,

When I was more active on alto, I kept an identical rim and otherwise had the underpart match the horn, rather than trying to use a reference to the tenor piece. Incidentally, the cup that I used for commercial music at the time was the same depth, but it was purely coincidence and would have bought another cup if something else worked better.

More important, in my opinion, is how the shank interacts with the leadpipe as sometimes receivers are not the same size as tenor receivers. For example, when I played a Conn 36H, I had the leadpipe replaced with a Shires leadpipe and used Doug's "ALTO" shank, whereas with the original leadpipe, I found the "ALTO S" shank was a better fit, and had less quirks with intonation. I believe I also used the latter shank when I played my school's Bach 39. I've had much less success with shanks meant for tenors, although I've had a 525/547 (yes, not a typo) alto in the shop for awhile that before I sent it off, I was experimenting with larger shanks and I don't recall coming to a conclusion about what worked best.

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:57 pm Hi all,

Lets say you find a Tenor Mouthpiece that fits your needs. In what way(s) (If any) should you use this tenor mouthpiece to help you find your alto piece(s)?

I am a believer in continuing inner rim diameter throughout all mouthpieces, but i'm wondering the other changes:

Should it be an exact replica to your tenor mouthpiece, but everything equally sized down?
Should it be totally different in size, balance?
Or should it be a mix & up to personal preference?

I'm curious what others have done, both good and bad, to give me some ideas on what to try.

Thanks,

All players fall into two categories: some use the same rim for tenor and alto, others use a smaller diameter on alto than tenor. As Doug Elliott wrote on the old forum, IIIA embouchure players prefer the same size for tenor and alto, while IIIB players easily switch rims for tenor and alto.
In another thread, Doug told you that you have IIIB. Therefore, you should try a smaller size on the alto. If you play a Hammond 12 tenor mouthpiece, try the Hammond 14S alto mouthpiece for example.

Trombo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:13 am
All players fall into two categories: some use the same rim for tenor and alto, others use a smaller diameter on alto than tenor. As Doug Elliott wrote on the old forum, IIIA embouchure players prefer the same size for tenor and alto, while IIIB players easily switch rims for tenor and alto.
In another thread, Doug told you that you have IIIB. Therefore, you should try a smaller size on the alto. If you play a Hammond 12 tenor mouthpiece, try the Hammond 14S alto mouthpiece for example.

I am apparently a lllB, but I am VERY sensitive to rim size. If i'm playing on a rim that is just .03mm off, I get effected by the result. .03mm too large, and I have NO endurance, .03mm too small and I feel my lip being restrained by the rim and my resonance suffers.

So i'm not totally buying that.

With my system there's another way. The same rim size, maybe 101, on a smaller series - LT on tenor and ST on alto. The ST 101 slopes inward quickly, which has the effect of a smaller size but with the same top surface as the tenor rim. MT is less of the same.

For people sensitive to size, I don't advertise this but I can make half sizes, like 101.5, in most rims.

I have no issue switching rims when playing different horns. I play a DE XB112 on bass, XT104 on large bore tenor, XT101 on small bore tenor and I use either a Shires 11C or Wedge 96C on alto.

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:06 am I have no issue switching rims when playing different horns. I play a DE XB112 on bass, XT104 on large bore tenor, XT101 on small bore tenor and I use either a Shires 11C or Wedge 96C on alto.

I play with a guy who can switch between alto, tenor, and bass using different sizes, in the same concert, and sound great. Some people can just do that, while others unfortunately can't.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:55 am With my system there's another way. The same rim size, maybe 101, on a smaller series - LT on tenor and ST on alto. The ST 101 slopes inward quickly, which has the effect of a smaller size but with the same top surface as the tenor rim. MT is less of the same.

For people sensitive to size, I don't advertise this but I can make half sizes, like 101.5, in most rims.

I was thinking about posting about the alpha angle again but didn't. This is it exactly.

Come to think of it, my tenor piece I made is probably a bit like a 106N on a LT or ST cup.

"Alpha angle" is Gary Radke's term, and maybe his trumpet mouthpieces actually have an angle below the inner edge but most mouthpieces have curves there, not an "angle" and I usually refer to it as a "slope.". It's what your lips perceive as they protrude slightly into the beginning of the cup, and that affects the high and low range response AND volume capability, and "openness" of feel.

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:44 am ... I am VERY sensitive to rim size. If i'm playing on a rim that is just .03mm off, I get effected by the result. .03mm too large, and I have NO endurance, .03mm too small and I feel my lip being restrained by the rim and my resonance suffers.

The princess and the pea! 0.03 mm is only ~0.001 inch.
This is close to the tolerance limit of mouthpiece manufacturing.
This means that Brian is sensitive to the difference between a 1.010" Cup I.D and a 1.011" Cup.

Perhaps he meant 0.3mm (0.012"), so he could feel a DE 102 (1.02") being quite different than a DE 101 (1.01") ?

That doesn’t seem that unreasonable to me. I notice a difference from XT103 to XT104

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:58 pm That doesn’t seem that unreasonable to me. I notice a difference from XT103 to XT104

But probably not from XT103 to XT103.1 (0.03mm difference).

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:35 pm "Alpha angle" is Gary Radke's term, and maybe his trumpet mouthpieces actually have an angle below the inner edge but most mouthpieces have curves there, not an "angle" and I usually refer to it as a "slope.". It's what your lips perceive as they protrude slightly into the beginning of the cup, and that affects the high and low range response AND volume capability, and "openness" of feel.

You're right, of course. I like the terminology though, because it does describe something that is hard to describe, in one single term. Alpha slope maybe?

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:03 pm

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:58 pm That doesn’t seem that unreasonable to me. I notice a difference from XT103 to XT104

But probably not from XT103 to XT103.1 (0.03mm difference).

Yeah, at that point you can barely trust the calibrated measuring equipment, let alone the lips, or if you ate tomatoes the previous day.

.03mm is a minimal difference, but I notice it. It definitely has an effect on my playing, but maybe not one that someone would hear in the audience.

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:23 pm .03mm is a minimal difference, but I notice it. It definitely has an effect on my playing, but maybe not one that someone would hear in the audience.

I think we have a unit conversion issue here. 1 inch = 25.40 mm (exactly).

I would guess that Doug Elliott would be happy if his mouthpiece cup diameter tolerance was ±0.001" (±0.025mm) - or more - meaning that an acceptable DE 101 Cup diameter (nominal 1.01") could range from 1.009" to 1.011". The difference between the smallest (25.63mm) and largest acceptable Cup I.D. (25.68mm) is thus 0.05mm - a miniscule amount.

Most mouthpiece manufacturers will not (cannot) specify their cup diameters to such a close tolerance - especially considering that it's not really clear where is the best place to measure this dimension on such a curved surface.

Oh lol yeah no I’m not that sensitive