Mouthpiece Throat Entrance

[blap73]

So on a whim I picked up an eBay "MT. VERNON 12C" which comes in a box marked "Mouth of Tenor Trombone" (ROFL), in addition to Mouth of Baritone, Euphonium... my intention was to include this with a spare horn I was going to donate or try to sell. Nice new never used...

I tried it, and it is so bad I don't want to wreck some beginner's experience with it.
Pulled it out last night and was looking more carefully at it. The one thing I see is that the entrance to the throat is sharp. There's really no bevel, rounded edge or anything.

Compared to another good generic 12C, Bach 7C, which have about a 2mm long rounded entrance, a Bach 6.5 AL that has a considerable funnel into the throat. The Yamaha 48 is similar to the 6.5 AL. In every case any sort of abrupt angle change is avoided.

What is the knowledge out there on what effects the MP throat entry shape has?

[hornbuilder]

Historical sackbut mouthpieces have a sharp transition to the throat. This creates a kind of "hiss" to the sound, that is quite audible to the player, but dissipates more the further away the listener. It also tends to limit dynamics somewhat. Rounding off the throat entry cleans up that hiss and increases dynamic possibility.

[blap73]

Ha, they should sell these as a Sackbut mouthpiece for twice as much. Limited market though!

[LeTromboniste]

The "hiss" tends to go away after time as your technique adapts, so I'm not sure it's an inherent feature of the sharp throat. More like it's what happens when you try to blow in such a mouthpiece the same way as you would a more familiar one.

For sure it does spread the sound, resulting in more overtones and less core. That does also limit the dynamic range. On the other hand it gives access to a broader and more refined range of articulations, so it's a trade-off.

In any case, it's probably not a desirable feature to pair with a modern trombone.

[blap73]

I spent more time last night going back and forth between the genuine Bach 7C and this "mouth of trombone 12C" on my Conn 4H.

As Maximilien noted, I was able to adapt somewhat. At first the "mouth of trombone 12C" definitely had poor hissy/airy tone that wasn't pleasant. The 7C was far more mellow. As I went back and forth it seemed that the biggest issue was soft playing - the airy/hissy noise would dominate on the "mouth of trombone 12C".

I suspect the character of the 4H helped make the thing less objectionable. Originally I tested this mouthpiece on a King 606.

[blap73]

A fix!
I picked up a 'taper pin reamer' in about 6mm size (so tapers from smaller than that to larger than that). It's a fairly slow change in diameter. I used it on the entrance (cup side) of throat on the Chinese "Mouth of Trombone" "MT VERNON 12C". I cut about a 1 mm bevel in the entrance with the reamer.

WAY BETTER!
In case anyone wants to play around with cheap mouthpieces!

[CharlieB]

Congrats on your modification.
But the mouthpiece is still a Chinesium POS.
Please don't dump this on some unsuspecting beginner.
We need to encourage them, not provide obstacles.

[Posaunus]

WAY BETTER!
In case anyone wants to play around with cheap mouthpieces!

Hardly worth it when you can get an authentic 12C for a reasonable price (used, new Bach, new Faxx).

[blap73]

Well to the two criticisms above...

Good luck not buying stuff made in China. [iPhones, tools, furniture, Christmas lights, on and on]
I view this MP as an example where they tried to copy a 12C and got a detail wrong. Now that I've rectified that I'd be perfectly happy experimenting on it, doing things like opening up the throat. Or re-profiling the rim. Or bending the shank. I think experimenting on a metal mouthpiece (with smooth bore, cup, and rim) would be more revealing than doing the same in a 3D printed MP as suggested in another thread. If an alteration appears worth pursuing on this thing, then I'd do it on Faxx or Bach.

Lastly I don't think it is a POS after my mod. I would not dump it on a beginner as it WAS (as I stated in post 1).

One last thing... I read all over this forum: "Bach quality control wasn't great"!