TromboneChat

Does anyone know where I can buy a cut bell ring and threads?

Instrument Innovations for one

I already checked their website. I didn't see one. Can you send a link?

Shires sells them, but don't know if it's for everyone or just techs. It's where John Sandhagen got the ring when he cut mine.

aasavickas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:06 am I already checked their website. I didn't see one. Can you send a link?

Call them. It's the ring I have on my horn too.

You cannot just buy a generic kit for converting to a screw rim. The rings really should be made specifically for the taper of the bell. Mike Olsen sent me a measuring kit a couple of times so that he could machine the exact taper for some conversions. I would not be shocked if Mike has at least 20 different sizes for .547 bore bells alone.

Be careful. If the rings don’t fit well, the project could be a mess.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:13 am You cannot just buy a generic kit for converting to a screw rim. The rings really should be made specifically for the taper of the bell. Mike Olsen sent me a measuring kit a couple of times so that he could machine the exact taper for some conversions. I would not be shocked if Mike has at least 20 different sizes for .547 bore bells alone.

Be careful. If the rings don’t fit well, the project could be a mess.

Shires rings work on a wide variety of bells without any kind of measuring. The way they designed them its just not needed.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:13 am Shires rings work on a wide variety of bells without any kind of measuring. The way they designed them its just not needed.

Been thinking about cutting my bell on my 3bf. Do you know if Shires carry a ring for an 8" bell with a similar design as you mentioned?

JLivi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:35 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:13 am Shires rings work on a wide variety of bells without any kind of measuring. The way they designed them its just not needed.

Been thinking about cutting my bell on my 3bf. Do you know if Shires carry a ring for an 8" bell with a similar design as you mentioned?

I haven't cut that specific bell so I can't say with 100% certainly. Odds are they have a ring that works.

Shìres tenor rings will likely work on a smaller bell like a 3BF. They use the same rings on the Marshall Gilkes model as they do on their large bore tenors.

Perhaps the tech who does the work should be in charge of getting the parts. Since they are the one who has to make it fit. Buying the wrong parts is not helpful.

Blabberbucket wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:22 pm Shìres tenor rings will likely work on a smaller bell like a 3BF. They use the same rings on the Marshall Gilkes model as they do on their large bore tenors.

Well there you have it.

greenbean wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 7:35 pm Perhaps the tech who does the work should be in charge of getting the parts. Since they are the one who has to make it fit. Buying the wrong parts is not helpful.

Some techs buy garbage parts too, better off doing your own homework.

Blabberbucket wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:22 pm Shìres tenor rings will likely work on a smaller bell like a 3BF. They use the same rings on the Marshall Gilkes model as they do on their large bore tenors.

You cannot use the same screw ring set on both small and large tenors. The diameters and rate and shape of taper of the bells at the point where they're placed are hugely different.

I am concerned about the Shires-rings-are-a-one-size-fit-all notion. To me, it sounds like an over-simplification of the screw-bell ring set customization. Honestly, I have never installed a Shires set, so I cannot vouch for how easily they can be installed on an assortment of bells.

Bell tapers are very different.....sometimes even within the same brand and model. I have always used ring sets made by Mike Olsen at Instrument Innovations. Many times, those sets have been made specifically for the bell that I have mated the ring set to. Even when the bell ring set has been made specifically for the bell, the match has not been perfect and I have needed to customize (sand by hand) the rings to be a perfect fit for the bell. I always try to make each (convex) ring surface match the bell taper exactly.....with no play. Sometimes it takes a few minutes, other times....an hour or two.

If there is a bell ring set that appears to be a one-size-fits-all (even for a single-size bell taper), I am thinking that each ring might have a concave surface on both parts. While a concave ring set might be universal in how it fits bell tapers, I am worried that it has less surface area touching the bell taper prior to soldering. Granted, the solder probably fills in that gap, I just have concerns about the quality of how the parts match.

Possibly those who have done an assortment of brands of screw-bell conversions can bring some clarity to this. For me, I have always felt that it was important to take the time and really make the rings exactly match the taper of the bell before installing them. That's the way I was taught to do it on my first Holton screw-bell conversion (a ring set actually made by Mike Olsen) back in the 1990s, and I have done it the same way ever since.

While I do not own a srew bell trombone and also don't really have any need for one - and also I might have misunderstood the discussion, but still:
Aside from how well the screw ring(s) sit on the bell/have contact, doesn't it also play a role at which point it is located?
What I mean: Assuming you use the same set on a small and a large bell, on the small bell it would be located much further towards the end of the flare. Wouldn't this impact the reponse and playing in one or the other way?

MStarke wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:55 amAside from how well the screw ring(s) sit on the bell/have contact, doesn't it also play a role at which point it is located?

What I mean: Assuming you use the same set on a small and a large bell, on the small bell it would be located much further towards the end of the flare. Wouldn't this impact the reponse and playing in one or the other way?

I have wondered this myself. I remember some Conn trombones for sale at Dillon Music a while back. I think there were two? They were Simons models with two removable bell flares. I always assumed that instead of brazing the flare into the spout as with most Conn trombone 2 piece bells, they had kept the pieces separate, and that's how they were joined together.

If you're taking a two piece bell and cutting it for a screw bell conversion, would you want the cut at the brazing line, or somewhere else?

Does anyone have any experience taking an Edwards bell and cutting it?

I have a .547 Alessi model and .562 Bass that I am thinking about cutting.

If you're taking a two piece bell and cutting it for a screw bell conversion, would you want the cut at the brazing line, or somewhere else?

Matt Walker from M&W has mentioned a few times that he's tried it both ways and the results are better when the cut is NOT made at the brazing line. IIRC, all M&W horns that are cut bells are made in the traditional fashion and then cut, rather than having two pieces made and just having the rings soldered in a particular spot.

aasavickas wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 6:53 am Does anyone have any experience taking an Edwards bell and cutting it?

I have a .547 Alessi model and .562 Bass that I am thinking about cutting.

Cutting a bell is a lot more than a sharpie marker and going in with a hacksaw. There is a lot of fitting and measuring to make sure the rings fit the bell and that the cut in the bell matches the joint in the rings perfectly. Before I put a saw to an Edwards I'd make sure I was successful with a couple of Conn Directors first. If you don't want to invest the time and effort to learn to do it right, take it to a good tech.

These horns cost more than my first car.

I will absolutely be taking to a fantastic tech who has done tons of french horn screw bells.

It's honestly pretty simple to do. I get a little nutty on the initial ring placement, but the cut itself isn't difficult.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 5:44 am It's honestly pretty simple to do. I get a little nutty on the initial ring placement, but the cut itself isn't difficult.

There is a famous story (probably apocryphal) about a very expensive computer system that failed. In a last moment of desperation the company called in a famous consultant to try to fix it. In comes the consultant with a brief case. He opens the briefcase and takes out a piece of chalk and a hammer. He marks a circle on the computer case, grabs the hammer, and deals a sharp blow to the computer within the circle. The computer springs to life. The consultant then presents a bill for $10,007.10. The computer owners ask him to explain. "10 cents for the chalk, $7 for the hammer, $10,000 for knowing where to place the circle."

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 5:58 am”10 cents for the chalk, $7 for the hammer, $10,000 for knowing where to place the circle."

Possibly not entirely apocryphal, but I think some version dates back to before computers (likely to at least the age of steam).

There are those who will solder on the ring set and give the back to the owner for some play testing before making the actual cut.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:30 am

Blabberbucket wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:22 pm Shìres tenor rings will likely work on a smaller bell like a 3BF. They use the same rings on the Marshall Gilkes model as they do on their large bore tenors.

You cannot use the same screw ring set on both small and large tenors. The diameters and rate and shape of taper of the bells at the point where they're placed are hugely different.

I worked there and cut many bells during my time there. They use the same rings.

Whether or not it's best practice, well, who am I to say?

greenbean wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 7:35 pm Perhaps the tech who does the work should be in charge of getting the parts. Since they are the one who has to make it fit. Buying the wrong parts is not helpful.

Every DIY plumbing repair requires 3 trips to the hardware store.
One to buy the parts you think you need, the second to buy the parts it turns out you really need, the third for the parts you broke or dropped down the hole and lost. And that's the minimum..

I suspect bell rings might be similar!

timothy42b wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:42 am

greenbean wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 7:35 pm Perhaps the tech who does the work should be in charge of getting the parts. Since they are the one who has to make it fit. Buying the wrong parts is not helpful.

Every DIY plumbing repair requires 3 trips to the hardware store.
One to buy the parts you think you need, the second to buy the parts it turns out you really need, the third for the parts you broke or dropped down the hole and lost. And that's the minimum..

I suspect bell rings might be similar!

Did a ton of drainage work this summer. Sometimes I made 3 trips to the store PER DAY

Here are some photos taken this morning.

Small tenor bell/large tenor ring set. Note large gap between the ring and bell. Tight fit on the top of the ring.

Small tenor/large tenor ring

Large tenor/large tenor ring

The minor diameter of the ring set has them sitting at a good height on the small bell, but the taper is way off. If I were to use this ring set on the small tenor bell, I would lose a good 3-4mm of bell length, (because the lower ring sits quite a bit lower on the flare by itself) and end up with a large step inside the bell between the flare and stem.

Blabberbucket wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 11:55 am

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:30 am

You cannot use the same screw ring set on both small and large tenors. The diameters and rate and shape of taper of the bells at the point where they're placed are hugely different.

I worked there and cut many bells during my time there. They use the same rings.

Whether or not it's best practice, well, who am I to say?

Doesn't mean it's right.

That does seem to be what they said, isn’t it?

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 9:15 amDoesn't mean it's right.

That would really depend on whether they would then take the rings and machine them down to fit right. If not, some of the bell would have to be removed, which is not what I consider 'optimal'

I understand what you're saying, Matt Walker, and agree that it's less than ideal to use the same rings on small and large tenors.

All the more reason for the original poster to bring the instrument to an experienced tech who will know exactly what is necessary to do this job.

With that said, the fit of the large tenor rings on the Marshall bells never left quite as dramatic of a gap under the lower ring as what your picture shows. Perhaps the Marshall bell has a taper that more closely mimics a large tenor and allows for a better fit of the large tenor detach rings. I was not closely involved with the manufacture of those bells, nor the decision on whether or not the fit of the ring was acceptable. I just did the work that I was asked as folks there were not particularly receptive to suggestions for improvements.

Just ask a few techs if they like it when customers buy their own parts.

greenbean wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:22 am Just ask a few techs if they like it when customers buy their own parts.

I once supplied parts to a tech for a bell section I was having made and, being slightly taken aback, looked peered in my bag o' parts and then promptly exclaimed (paraphrased), "Hey, you actually got the right parts!"

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:13 am
Be careful. If the rings don’t fit well, the project could be a mess.

I have French horn ring on mine, as hard as it is for things to fit well they can be made to be fit. That being said, I don’t recommend it, get a trombone ring if you can

Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:24 am That does seem to be what they said, isn’t it?

No.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 5:44 am It's honestly pretty simple to do. I get a little nutty on the initial ring placement, but the cut itself isn't difficult.

^^^this^^^

I was there when the Sauer bell was being prototyped. Putting the ring in the wrong place can do VERY strange things to the way the horn plays.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:09 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:24 am That does seem to be what they said, isn’t it?

No.

They said that they weren’t in a position to indicate whether or not it was best practice. That is semantically equivalent to saying that “it doesn’t mean it’s right” with possible undertones if you squint hard enough and read between some lines that maybe should read between of “it’s not right but I’m not going to badmouth my previous employer”. They’re actually in agreement with your position but you’re trying very hard to find a reason why they aren’t.

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 8:34 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:09 am
No.

They said that they weren’t in a position to indicate whether or not it was best practice. That is semantically equivalent to saying that “it doesn’t mean it’s right” with possible undertones if you squint hard enough and read between some lines that maybe should read between of “it’s not right but I’m not going to badmouth my previous employer”. They’re actually in agreement with your position but you’re trying very hard to find a reason why they aren’t.

Uhhhh. OK.

You can buy parts direct from shires, they will sell to anyone. I have purchased several rings from them and put them on shires and conn bells, ive also seen them on bachs. The taper of the rings fits like a glove on shires bell (as it should) but requires some machining to fit snugly on Conn Bells.