TromboneChat

This question comes with a big caveat -- I've been pretty harshly critical of college music programs, not because of the actual teaching or education, but because of the cost and the slim chances of landing the desired career after graduating. I still believe it sets up a majority of 18 year olds for disappointment, and debt. With that said ... Here goes.

I'm looking to retire from military service around 2030-2034. I'll be in my early to mid 40's. I've earned a GI bill, and it doesn't make sense to waste it. The biggest draw that I'll have with using the GI Bill is that most of not all of the school should be funded, and I'll get something like $1000 in today's dollars each month for housing. That's in addition to a military pension, which will be around $3000 per month.

I think going into school with the skillset I have now might mean I'd get more out of it than going in at 18, and I might be able to really get a lot out of my lessons. I might be able to start auditioning for orchestras early in the process too.

It's been a long time since I went to school, and it wasn't for music. I went to college because I thought it was something I had to do. I didn't particularly like anything about it, other than the trombone studio, lessons, and ensembles I did that counted as elective GenEds. That was all I looked forward to each day. Go figure, my job still involves playing the trombone every day. I got a degree, didn't really get the best grades in my major field of study. I was basically learning to play the trombone as a Soc major.

For you college teachers and alums, here are my questions:

1. Will any decent school accept a 40 year old applicant in the first place? Would an audition be a waste of time?

2. I already have an undergrad, and will have something like 30 years of experience as a musician. What kind of program should I apply for? Would a masters or diploma program be viable? Could I at least use my undergrad to get out of having to study generic classes?

3. What schools should I look at? I basically want to just do intensive study in lessons, orch repertoire, and ensembles, in the highest level program that would accept me. I would start auditioning as soon as my teacher thinks it's a good idea.

I know this is probably crazy. If it's possible though, I really would have nothing to lose financially, and would not be destitute upon graduation.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:52 pm 1. Will any decent school accept a 40 year old applicant in the first place? Would an audition be a waste of time?

Yes. No.

2. I already have an undergrad, and will have something like 30 years of experience as a musician. What kind of program should I apply for? Would a masters or diploma program be viable? Could I at least use my undergrad to get out of having to study generic classes?

I don't know what you mean by generic classes. Masters degrees don't have the same kind of GenEd requirements as undergrad degrees. You take classes relevant to your field. The specific requirements vary from school to school.

3. What schools should I look at? I basically want to just do intensive study in lessons, orch repertoire, and ensembles, in the highest level program that would accept me. I would start auditioning as soon as my teacher thinks it's a good idea.

You'll need to do what everybody else does for grad school in music: think about schools that interest you and teachers you might want to study with. Make contact with them and set up trial lessons - a lot of that happens remotely now, so being in Japan is only a minor obstacle.

Would I be eligible for a masters degree without having music education at the undergrad level?

"1. Will any decent school accept a 40 year old applicant in the first place? Would an audition be a waste of time?"

They should, or in my opinion they are not a decent school. An audition would not be a waste of time. I think you could be a valuable addition to a studio personally.

"2. I already have an undergrad, and will have something like 30 years of experience as a musician. What kind of program should I apply for? Would a masters or diploma program be viable? Could I at least use my undergrad to get out of having to study generic classes?"

I would recommend a master's degree, and also recommend being open to taking classes outside of the performance majors (electronics, business, etc.) As you mention, you will get a lot of them at this point in your life, and it won't really take away anything to be well-rounded.


"3. What schools should I look at? I basically want to just do intensive study in lessons, orch repertoire, and ensembles, in the highest level program that would accept me. I would start auditioning as soon as my teacher thinks it's a good idea."

Consider the teacher first, and also the location, and do a deep search in yourself to know exactly what you want out of this. I would be more than open to chatting anytime if you would like, as these conversations are quite interesting to me.

"Would I be eligible for a masters degree without having music education at the undergrad level?"

At my school you would be. Some might be different, but it's always possible to ask and be clear with all of your potential choices.

Especially at the graduate and/or diploma level, I think many schools would be open to have an older student who is already a professional musician. Undergrad would be more problematic in many schools where at equal level, they tend to favour younger students. Some schools might not accept you in grad school if you don't have undergrad in music as you'd be missing all the theory courses, ear training, etc., but I'm sure some would.

Some schools offer graduate diplomas specifically in orchestral playing, where all your focus is on excerpts and preparing for the auditions circuit, which might align with your goals better than doing a master's.

Is your plan to study and then live in the US?

My plan is to study in the US and then audition for orchestras in the US, Japan, and potentially Europe.

Thank you so much for the responses so far, everyone!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:19 am My plan is to study in the US and then audition for orchestras in the US, Japan, and potentially Europe.

Thank you so much for the responses so far, everyone!

Not sure if this is a huge factor for you:
In my experience in middle Europe people that appear at (symphony) orchestra auditions are either max 30-35 years old or have substantial prior experience in symphony orchestra/are already coming from another symphony orchestra job. As from my knowledge you are in an army wind (?) orchestra, this might be an issue. No idea if this is the same in the US or Japan.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:04 pm Would I be eligible for a masters degree without having music education at the undergrad level?

For grad school applications the schools I auditioned for had a requirement of “an undergrad in music performance or equivalent ” 30 years of professional playing experience might count as equivalent.

The process I went through involved a written application (some wanted references with that), an audition and placement tests in music history and theory, so if you can do well on that stuff you’re good.

Grad school for me involved weekly lessons and masterclasses, required ensembles and research type seminars.

I don’t think your age will matter in most places. (Universities in Canada actually have mature student policies that value life/work experience over academic transcripts)

You’ll also have a few advantages over the kids you’re competing against. You have a very clear plan. You will have already been a professional. You will have the money. And you will have the money.

That will be huge. My Northwestern application went like this. Paper application- Welcome! We look forward to seeing you for your audition and interview! Audition- The teacher hangs with me for over an hour, then shows me around the place and expresses how much he is looking forward to working with me in the fall. Interview- “How are you going to pay for your master’s?” …“Oh, you don’t seem to have a great plan.” A few weeks later I got the wait list letter.

My advice would be to start targeting teachers you want to work with, about five to ten years out from your retirement and find ways to meet them for lessons. But it is probably equally important to just go where there are already a ton of good players. The school orchestra brass section in the place I ended up had players that ended up getting jobs in some pretty decent orchestras and even a chair in the Canadian Brass. My one year around those players kicked me in the ass very hard. I got a smaller orchestra job because of dealing with that competition for just one year.

MStarke wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 6:03 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:19 am My plan is to study in the US and then audition for orchestras in the US, Japan, and potentially Europe.

Thank you so much for the responses so far, everyone!

Not sure if this is a huge factor for you:
In my experience in middle Europe people that appear at (symphony) orchestra auditions are either max 30-35 years old or have substantial prior experience in symphony orchestra/are already coming from another symphony orchestra job. As from my knowledge you are in an army wind (?) orchestra, this might be an issue. No idea if this is the same in the US or Japan.

The pool of candidates in a North American audition is often even younger, but that is mostly because of the high school, undergrad, grad school, audition trail, employment or change of plan path that is the most common life plan. I’ve been on both sides of the screen. No one ever talked about age. People just gotta be able to play. The panel didn’t even have access to resumes unless we really wanted them on the finals.

Harrison’s plan of going to school for a bit should help get him into auditions because the personnel manager will see, with that on the resume, he is serious about it.

I would say it's worth taking time to think about whether opening doors in Europe is important to your plan.

From what I've heard around me, auditioning for jobs in central Europe (especially Germany) without being a product of that system can be really difficult. Studying in Germany for a couple years might open some doors there without really closing any in North America, but the reverse might not be true — and traveling to North America for auditions while living in Europe is much cheaper than the other way around, plus there are more auditions in Europe.

Europe would be amazing to study and live in and possibly work in, but what language would classes (and rehearsals) be in? I'm assuming that I'd need to learn another language to a relatively high level just to hang on for dear life. I'm not going to lie, one of the draws of auditioning for jobs in Japan would be to work and live in a safe country where people love classical music and the are no guns. A lot of Europe fits that bill, right? I don't feel bad saying I'm completely ignorant of how Europe works and operates -- I've never been there and all my six years overseas has been in Asia (Korea, Afghanistan, Japan, Mongolia).

I'm decently fluent in Japanese but that took over a decade of study in HS, college, and on my own, so that when I arrived by chance in Japan then I was able to pick up the actual language pretty quickly and feel like I could talk to people and have discussions. This experience makes me pretty reluctant to go somewhere in Europe and think it's OK to force English on people. Unless that's the common tongue linking everyone together and it's not frowned upon? Or is there another language I should get a head start on?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:57 pm Europe would be amazing to study and live in and possibly work in, but what language would classes (and rehearsals) be in? I'm assuming that I'd need to learn another language to a relatively high level just to hang on for dear life. I'm not going to lie, one of the draws of auditioning for jobs in Japan would be to work and live in a safe country where people love classical music and the are no guns. A lot of Europe fits that bill, right?

A lot of EU higher education is primarily anglophone these days. Not everywhere - France, naturellement, et al - but you'd have plenty of options. Obviously you'd want to get up to speed in the local chat, because life, but collegiately speaking you'd have plenty of options.

There are astoundingly few guns. You couldn't start a fight at a four-way stop, because it's roundabouts everywhere, but if you did you'd be more likely to be beaten to death with some sort of nationally-specific preserved meat than take a bullet.

The immediate problem might be fees, depending on VA attitudes; the free/extremely low cost tuition that's available to EU nationals won't apply.

Study with someone doing what you want to do.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:57 pm Europe would be amazing to study and live in and possibly work in, but what language would classes (and rehearsals) be in? I'm assuming that I'd need to learn another language to a relatively high level just to hang on for dear life. I'm not going to lie, one of the draws of auditioning for jobs in Japan would be to work and live in a safe country where people love classical music and the are no guns. A lot of Europe fits that bill, right? I don't feel bad saying I'm completely ignorant of how Europe works and operates -- I've never been there and all my six years overseas has been in Asia (Korea, Afghanistan, Japan, Mongolia).

I'm decently fluent in Japanese but that took over a decade of study in HS, college, and on my own, so that when I arrived by chance in Japan then I was able to pick up the actual language pretty quickly and feel like I could talk to people and have discussions. This experience makes me pretty reluctant to go somewhere in Europe and think it's OK to force English on people. Unless that's the common tongue linking everyone together and it's not frowned upon? Or is there another language I should get a head start on?

Of course individual lessons are usually in whatever language is most practical for the particular teacher-student pair. For the rest, it depends where.

Germany, German is for sure expected, and you typically need to prove proficiency as a prerequisite (B1, which is basic intermediate level), or commit to taking classes simultaneously with your studies if your level is lower. But that bar is not super high and quite realistic. German orchestras also tend to work in German primarily, with some English. That isn't to say English is frowned upon. Many of my German colleagues fully switch to English even when I'd rather keep speaking German despite throwing a few bits of English here and there. I had an audition a couple years ago for a teaching position at a major music university where the committee just (unprompted) insisted on doing the interview portion in English because they thought it would be easier for everyone, despite my confirming I was happy and comfortable doing it in German (although I didn't get the job so who knows if that was actually a good thing...). So there definitely is some flexibility.

Same in the German parts of Switzerland, but less strictly enforced, when enforced at all. I studied at a school with a very international student body, and while officially language of instruction was German, most classes and rehearsals were in English, only a few were in German, and all with bits of French, Italian and Spanish thrown in there too. Master thesis could be written in English, French, German or Italian.

Austria, not sure, might depend on the school.

In France, it'll be French. I wouldn't necessarily recommend going there, it's a fairly closed-off scene, for one, and the bureaucracy is absolutely insane. It's also administratively very complicated to freelance outside of France when you live there. Social climate is also not particularly fun.

Italy, expect Italian.

Netherlands, higher education is basically 100% available in English. It's actually difficult to even try to learn Dutch there, as they will stubbornly switch to English as soon as they detect a foreign accent. I'm not 100% sure to what extent studying in NL gives access to the German orchestral job market, worth asking around. There are some great teachers and trombone studios at all three major conservatories (Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam).

Belgium, depends what part of the country, French, or Dutch (Flemish) with some English.

Scandinavia and Finland, as far as I understand, English is generally very accepted.



Regarding fees, Germany and France have essentially free education no matter your nationality (negligible admin fees and no tuition fees) except the state of Baden-Württemberg which has reinstated non-EU tuition fees of 3000€. Also low cost of living (especially Germany). Switzerland has tuition fees but first Master's and first Specialised Master's are heavily state-funded, so still far below US tuition (I paid 2500 per year), but very high cost of living (gigs pay quite well, though). Netherlands, non-EU tuition is fairly high (around 15K per year), but still comparable to US in-state tuition, cost of living rather high. Similar tuition in Scandinavia IIRC, and cost of living very high.

One of my colleagues did his Masters without a Bachelors, but that was because he was only short one required course that the undergraduate school required, and the graduate school felt that he had, in effect, finished their undergraduate requirements.

I should say, though, that in my experience, most schools add requirements to their expectations of the undergraduate degree before accepting someone into their graduate programs.

Also, I applaud your goals. I vote for attending a school if possible rather than just studying with someone, because I think there's a lot to gain from the school experience .Spending a lot of time playing with other players (not just trombonists) that are focused on that same goal gives you a unique perspective, and great tips, examples, etc. come from a multitude of sources. Also, the networking prospects can also come in handy at times.

Good luck!

Jim Scott

Where would you all apply to if you were in my shoes?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 4:16 pm Where would you all apply to if you were in my shoes?

Go to Norway, and Study with Jonas Bylund. If I was young this is what I would do.

In our youth 1983 we did our military service together in the Swedish Royal Army Corps Band. After finshing his studies he was for a short period playing in the Swedish Radio orchestra but then moved to Germany. He has been busy there for years as a highly regarded professor in trombone. I think he now teaches also part time at the Royal Accademy of Music in Stockholm, a position he shares with Håkan Björkman. Nowdays he teach primarily in Oslo in Norway and I have read his students both there and the former students in Germany wins a lot of auditions and contests. He must be good His teaching has been rewarded and much talked about.
In Norway you can do with English.

/Tom

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 4:16 pm Where would you all apply to if you were in my shoes?

Hard to answer if we're talking roughly a decade from now. Some great teachers will be retired then, and new ones will be there that we don't even know about yet, plus all the ones who might have moved to a different orchestra and university by then.

Having been in your shoes, I would say the top two criteria, with equal importance, should be to study 1) with someone really good who does the kind of things you want to do (like Aidan said), and 2) in a school with lots of opportunities, in a city or region you'd like to stay and live in and where you might get work and the market is not saturated, because if you don't end up winning an audition, you might still make a freelance career. That is already hard enough as it is, and is harder if you've been bouncing around. Those years in grad school are a crucial time to make contacts and start getting gigs. If you move again afterwards, then that's potentially wasted.

When I was deciding where to go for my Master's, there was a very good player and teacher I wanted to study with who at the time was pretty much at the top of our field, we had a good rapport, and I felt he could really help me reach the level I was aiming for. Until then I had always gone or aimed to go where the teacher I wanted was, and everything else kind of came second. When we discussed it, I was surprised that he strongly urged me not to study with him, essentially saying it was against his own best interests to turn me away, but that for my career prospects, it made no sense to go where he was teaching, because the schools would not offer me the best environment to thrive in, and they weren't in places where I could really hope to establish strong foundations for a career. Some of the best career advice I ever got.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 4:11 am Until then I had always gone or aimed to go where the teacher I wanted was, and everything else kind of came second. When we discussed it, I was surprised that he strongly urged me not to study with him, essentially saying it was against his own best interests to turn me away, but that for my career prospects, it made no sense to go where he was teaching, because the schools would not offer me the best environment to thrive in, and they weren't in places where I could really hope to establish strong foundations for a career. Some of the best career advice I ever got.

This, very much. I did a similarly contrarian thing for my postgrad (in my case, going somewhere with an amazing historical instrument collection but less of a scene) and it was a great idea for all the reasons I had in mind at the time, and not such a great idea for the reasons I didn't realize back then...

People just need to know you - in the early years (and often beyond) the meritocratic element of freelancing is in getting asked back. Getting asked the first time is usually because there's some emergency and your name got mentioned in passing, or you ran into the fixer in the pub the week before.

I also think it hardly makes sense to make any concrete recommendations.
Most importantly as already mentioned today's top recommendations will partly not be there any more in 10 years. On the other hand there will certainly some still relatively new options that may be top recommendations then.

Almost as important would be for yourself - if you haven't yet - to answer some key questions, e. G. :
Do you want to exclusively focus on a classical/orchestra-oriented course?
Do you (also) want to have involvement and potentially part of your classes in jazz and/or baroque trombone?
At least in my time (finished my diploma in 2011) these were officially quite separate and not really compatible in expectations, teaching style, guidance etc

Do you have a certain school/style in mind? E g very technically oriented, song and wind, French or "old German" style (if that still exists).

Are you looking for studying more on a musical level and building on your current abilities or somehow aiming to reinvent substantial basics of your playing? there are teachers who may try to force you into a certain system which works great for some and destroys others (experienced this myself). So this can be very beneficial but also very risky.

From what I know today - and I am not deep into this anymore - I would probably try to study with Jonas Bylund (wherever he teaches now), Ian Bousfield and/or some place that supports getting deeply into orchestral and jazz/commercial at the same time. At least in Germany the classical scene is still a relatively closed shop...

You might start by seeing which studios are producing the most audition winners. Right now, it seems like Alessi and Mulcahy are producing a lot of successful students. Toby Oft and Jim Markey as well. A good number from IU and N. Texas as well. There are some smaller schools that seem to do well, especially for the smaller size of their studios. Also, another thing to consider is if a school might offer some sort of assistantship position, so that there's extra financial help, and teaching experience. IU and N. Texas both have large faculty (3 Profs.) and large studios, so there's lots of ability to find diverse playing/opinons. Places w/one teacher and a small studio offer more individual attention. Big schools often have multiple orchestras, which can mean more chances to play that rep., but in a smaller situation, you might get a "larger slice from the smaller pie" performance-wise.

You've got lots of time to decide, so figure out what appeals to you most before applying. If it were me, the teacher is first on the list, but a close second is the quality/quantity of performance

Sorry - that sent before I was finished. I was going to say the quality of the performance opportunities, and the quality of the other performers. It doesn't do you as much good if you're playing orchestral repertoire with good trombone players, but the rest of the brass are only so/so, and for that matter, the rest of the whole orchestra and the conductors.

Jim Scott

To echo a lot of other people here, i think it's a fantastic idea and massive props for it! There's a lot of really great advice above that I want to echo, especially from Jim and Maximilien.

I think having older and actually experienced students is a huge plus for studios. I've had a few older (and older than me) students at both schools I teach at (CalArts and LACC) and it's always been a huge benefit for the studio to have students who aren't just taking a straight through path. A lot of other teachers I've talked to feel similarly. I would imagine at places like IU, U Michigan, ASU, etc that your age and experience would make you a really appealing candidate for a graduate TA spot too. I can't emphasize enough how much having an older student in the studio really sets an example not only of behavior, but, more importantly, of being in school because you've thought about it and want to be there. And all your playing videos sound great.

Re the European orchestral scene, I've been debating making the jump for a bit as a lot of my work is over there (in the weird music realm). Feedback I've gotten pretty often is that it's nearly impossible to get an orchestral job in Western Europe after the age of 35 if you've not been there a while (I'm 37) as you'll have too short of a period paying into the pension fund. However there is a lot of freelance work and I've got a lot of colleagues who have moved there in their 40's, mostly to Berlin, on artist visas and make a good living freelancing. On the language side, especially in Germany, there seems to be a divide of people who just simply don't learn German and get by just fine and have for decades (which is feels incredibly rude, but it's a real thing, especially in the improvised music community) and people who really work to assimilate. I know in Germany specifically there's a pretty affordable online language course for around 150 euro a month, but refunds your money every month as long as you take a minimum number of classes. So it's set up to be friendly. On that side, my German isn't great, but it's pretty quick to learn what you need to know to get through an orchestra rehearsal. I've also found a lot just rehearse in English depending on if the conductor is German or not.

In Scandinavia there's a lot of really great options, especially on the artistic research phd front. They're quite competitive to get into, but want older students, pay quite well, and have you on a work visa instead of a student visa. It's incredibly easy to get by only speaking English in the Nordics. Most jobs I've seen/applied to either require English specifically or require English and a learning of the local language to a specific degree of proficiency within two years, often with the employer paying for classes. My colleagues who have done that basically said after the two years you basically forget how to speak whatever language it is because everyone just speaks English all the time when they hear you speak. Cost of living there is quite high, though it honestly feels a lot cheaper than West LA where I am, but Germany, especially Berlin, is wildly cheap. Though I've found the grocery stores everywhere in Europe are so much cheaper than the states.

Good luck with this plan- I think it's really awesome!

Fair enough, obviously it's impossibly to know where to apply to 8 or 12 years from now. Hakan Bjorkman would be one of my top choices for a teacher, to be honest, as he does almost exactly what I would love to get into as a performer. Toby Oft is another one. The US, UK, Scandinavian, and Japanese orchestras seem to be what I gravitate to, in my listening.

The jazz question is interesting. I play big band charts and N.O. brass band charts all the time and I like it, but improvising seems like a huge wall to me. One thing that I have learned from playing those charts is how to play a melody, especially in a vocal style. You would think playing a melody would be the easiest thing, but it's the hardest to get right. And it's something that, if you're crazy enough to apply it to classical solos in a subtle way, actually ends up working. So yes, a program where I could at least get time in a big band and jazz combo with good coaching would be great.

Baroque music is great to listen to, but I don't want to pursue it.

Part of me starting this thread is also to learn what these programs involve, because I'm pretty ignorant of the requirements. I didn't go to school for music, but all of my friends in the trombone studio were music majors. The workload seemed pretty heavy, and a lot of it seemed to eat in to their practice/rehearsal/music time. I'd be hoping to find something where the program is focused on career, ensemble, and technical aspects of music, and not a program where I'll be required to take more geneds.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:22 pm Fair enough, obviously it's impossibly to know where to apply to 8 or 12 years from now. Hakan Bjorkman would be one of my top choices for a teacher, to be honest, as he does almost exactly what I would love to get into as a performer. Toby Oft is another one. The US, UK, Scandinavian, and Japanese orchestras seem to be what I gravitate to, in my listening.

The jazz question is interesting. I play big band charts and N.O. brass band charts all the time and I like it, but improvising seems like a huge wall to me. One thing that I have learned from playing those charts is how to play a melody, especially in a vocal style. You would think playing a melody would be the easiest thing, but it's the hardest to get right. And it's something that, if you're crazy enough to apply it to classical solos in a subtle way, actually ends up working. So yes, a program where I could at least get time in a big band and jazz combo with good coaching would be great.

Baroque music is great to listen to, but I don't want to pursue it.

Part of me starting this thread is also to learn what these programs involve, because I'm pretty ignorant of the requirements. I didn't go to school for music, but all of my friends in the trombone studio were music majors. The workload seemed pretty heavy, and a lot of it seemed to eat in to their practice/rehearsal/music time. I'd be hoping to find something where the program is focused on career, ensemble, and technical aspects of music, and not a program where I'll be required to take more geneds.

Workload of courses can vary widely between courses, and also programme structures vary a lot between schools. In any case usually at the graduate level, there is no gen ed requirement. You typically have a large chunk of your credits that are your instrument lessons, and some for ensembles (often you'll end up with more ensemble credits than required). Then you need to attend a certain number of seminars of your choice, which are grad level courses that usually involve some research and much more discussions, typically in smaller groups than undergrad lectures. The topics of those vary semester to semester based on what the teachers want to teach, and go from very broad like "myths and imagination in music" to very specific like focusing the whole semester on analysing one specific musical work in all its aspects, so you can really choose the things that are relevant to you. Depending on the structure of the programme at the particular school, you may have some further electives to take which can be more seminars or taking undergrad level courses that interest you. You may or may not have ear training at the grad level. In many schools you'll also have a mandatory research methodology class in your first year of Master's.

In Europe, you typically have a thesis to write (but the requirements are often quite light compared to more academic fields) in addition to your recital. In North America it varies, in some schools you might not have a thesis but instead have a recital each year and more or less scholarly programme notes required for those.

It's not exactly a small workload, and you do need to do more than just practice and focus solely on trombone. Between the four different universities/conservatories I've been at, there were some large discrepancies in that respect, but overall my experience was that my non-practice workload dropped noticeably compared to what it was previously in my undergrad.

mbarbier wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:27 pmI think having older and actually experienced students is a huge plus for studios. I've had a few older (and older than me) students at both schools I teach at (CalArts and LACC) and it's always been a huge benefit for the studio to have students who aren't just taking a straight through path. A lot of other teachers I've talked to feel similarly. I would imagine at places like IU, U Michigan, ASU, etc that your age and experience would make you a really appealing candidate for a graduate TA spot too. I can't emphasize enough how much having an older student in the studio really sets an example not only of behavior, but, more importantly, of being in school because you've thought about it and want to be there. And all your playing videos sound great.

Glad someone brought this up. You'll be going in with a lot of experience as a working musician and will, even without really trying, set an example for the younger players as far as being prepared - not just musically, but logistically. Think of all the things you've learned the hard way playing random gigs over the years.

I haven’t read every word of this thread but what i have read looks great. A lot of service band folks would get DMAs at Catholic University in DC after the retired. My euph teacher at Peabody was doing this when I was studying with him.

You may have to prove to someone during the admissions process that you know your undergraduate theory and history so I’d learn that if you never did. It’s good for you anyway.

I was an army bandsmen for a time in my 20's. I transferred my benefits to the post 9-11 GI Bill.

I grew up poor and needed money for school which is why I joined up, among other reasons. I finished an Associates in General Studies while active for free. Then used my GI bill for a BBA in Finance and a Law Degree.

When I was getting out, I asked a few players what they recommended I major in Music or something else. They said, when they played at a good medium quality orchestra, good but not top 8, they said that the parking lot had fancy cars and cheap ones, the difference was that some of the musicians were accountants, doctors, lawyers, etc. and the crap cars were music majors with no health insurance. The important part was that you couldn't hear the difference in their playing. The folks with non music majors just had nicer cars, homes, instruments, and health insurance.

I listened to him. I got a business degree and was the only non music major to play in the top band and did some time in the orchestra. It was a good time. I still play and have a decent standard of living. If I were in your shoes, I would use tuition assistance for free while active and get an online music bachelors degree to tighten up your theory and music business skills. That way you stay up on your ability to study for school and don't have to worry about a grad school giving you grief for not having a music degree. This will help with promotions in the service and you have plenty of time.

Then when you get out, ETS to an area with a good scene and teacher like the others said above. Get some lessons before you retire to find a teacher that is a good fit. If you are a performance major, the person teaching you is the most important factor, IMHO. Then use the post 9-11 to get a masters, masters cert, or PHD program.

I have enjoyed what I did, and after just turning 40, have decided to start taking lessons and auditions again. I am exploring starting a masters/phd program in music in the area. I would probably like to play in a decent symphony, has a brass quintet, and teach at the college level. I don't regret my choices as it afforded me a good standard of living and helps me support my family. Plus, I could never afford my horn collection without a strong day job. The only difference is I am older at auditions and my car actually costs more than the horn that is in it.

Send me a PM if you want to chat. I have plenty of experience working the VA GI bill system and also am a VA accredited attorney. I help out vets with VA stuff pro bono often. The process can be a pain and sometimes you need to be clever to get the most of the benefits.

Just about all of the advice in this thread is excellent. Trombone nerds who hang out of this forum are good folks who want the best for other players. Seems like you have a good plan. Planning your retirement 10 years out seems early but it is smart. Getting out of the service can be much more difficult of a transition than many think it is. Having a plan and a place to go, makes it much smoother.