TromboneChat

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:29 pm**

Saw a post with what I assume was a student asking what a bass trombone was? This got me wondering what clarifies a bass as a bass. Obviously two triggers means bass in most situations but there are obviously single triggers and I wonder if two valve tenors exist. Also historically I know that we have gotten larger and some horns considered tenors now definitely fell into the bass range in terms of size. I don't know I honestly am interested in everyone's thoughts what makes a bass trombone a bass and not a tenor?

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:33 pm**

easy, mostly correct answer: bore size of .562 or larger, large tapers through tuning slide and bell throat, 9" or larger bell. Choose your amount of valves, they're all correct.

Bass sound comes from the tuning slide and bell tapers, so an 88HK with a bass slide isn't it.

I have a Chinese horn with .555 bore, no valves, 9" bell but the tapers through the tuning slide and bell make it MUCH more bass-like than tenor.

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:53 pm**

Bass trombone is a state of mind.

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:48 pm**

I've done a lot of weird frankenprojects that straddle that line. Indeed, I've owned a 2 valve tenor and a valveless "bass". Totally agree with Aidan, it's almost all tuning slide and bell taper, especially the closer to the tuning slide.

Duo Gravis is 562 through the valves and it still sounds and feels like what I consider a bass. Likewise, I had a dependent tenor with a Holton tenor bell that was 9" and it was most definitely not a bass. Likewise, the 88HK bell I have mounted for Shires tenors does not play like other things I consider a bass, even with a 562 slide, despite something like the Duo Gravis playing like a bass.

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:49 pm**

DakoJack wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:29 pm I wonder if two valve tenors exist.

They exist if I build them.

2valve.jpg

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:56 pm**

DakoJack wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:29 pmObviously two triggers means bass in most situations but there are obviously single triggers and I wonder if two valve tenors exist.

Double-valve tenors are rare, but they exist. Glenn Ferris has played a tenor with double inline valves for quite a while.

You kinda have to make a distinction between a practical modern bass trombone (as ably described by burgerbob) and a historical bass trombone (which is defined more by its intended purpose than its dimensions).

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:11 am**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:33 pm easy, mostly correct answer: bore size of .562 or larger, large tapers through tuning slide and bell throat, 9" or larger bell. Choose your amount of valves, they're all correct.

Bass sound comes from the tuning slide and bell tapers, so an 88HK with a bass slide isn't it.

I have a Chinese horn with .555 bore, no valves, 9" bell but the tapers through the tuning slide and bell make it MUCH more bass-like than tenor.

Sooo close! A friend of mine owns a NY 67 bach 50 with an 8 5/8" bell from the factory. He calls it his sport model bass trombone, and man it plays great!

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:19 am**

JohnL wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:56 pmYou kinda have to make a distinction between a practical modern bass trombone (as ably described by burgerbob) and a historical bass trombone (which is defined more by its intended purpose than its dimensions).

See: the old British G bass trombones, with narrower bores and bells than modern orchestral tenor trombones.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:47 am**

Well, there are two ways to make a trombone a bass trombone. The old way is more length, the new way is bigger tuning slide taper and bell throat. Both result in an instrument that has the same role, but the modern way is easier to play and more versatile (hence why we use it).

A King 1480 with its .536" slide bore and 9" bell is a bass trombone, while a Bach 42T with a .562" Bach 50 slide is a tenor trombone. Of course there is some overlap and they both sound like trombones...it's not like there is a vast chasm between large tenor and bass. But each clearly shines best in its intended role. Aidan's .555" Chinese horn is right in between tenor and bass dimensionally, but it likes being a bass with a bass mouthpiece MUCH more (and is shockingly good at it, even without a valve).

On a related note, length vs. bigger tapers/throat is also what happened with contrabass trombone. We traded in the length of the Bb contra for the 2-valve F contra, and are better off for it. A double-valved F bass trombone and a double-valved F contrabass trombone are very different, probably moreso than a double-valved tenor vs. double-valved bass. The tenor trombone has stayed at Bb and not moved up to Eb, but 9' Bb works so well that it makes sense why that hasn't happened.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:13 am**

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:11 am
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:33 pm easy, mostly correct answer: bore size of .562 or larger, large tapers through tuning slide and bell throat, 9" or larger bell. Choose your amount of valves, they're all correct.

Bass sound comes from the tuning slide and bell tapers, so an 88HK with a bass slide isn't it.

I have a Chinese horn with .555 bore, no valves, 9" bell but the tapers through the tuning slide and bell make it MUCH more bass-like than tenor.
Sooo close! A friend of mine owns a NY 67 bach 50 with an 8 5/8" bell from the factory. He calls it his sport model bass trombone, and man it plays great!

Heresy!!

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:07 pm**

DakoJack wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:29 pm I wonder if two valve tenors exist.

I remember Greenhoe offering that as an option on their large bore tenors.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:21 pm**

Is it a 42 stem or a 50 stem? Almost sounds like a slightly bigger version of the 45 but wth 3/8" smaller flare.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:49 pm**

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:21 pm Is it a 42 stem or a 50 stem? Almost sounds like a slightly bigger version of the 45 but wth 3/8" smaller flare.

The 8 5/8" 50? 100% a bach 50 stem. Im trying to get conn selmer to cut a 62 bell like it for me. Not getting my hopes up. Lol.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:03 pm**

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:49 pm
Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:21 pm Is it a 42 stem or a 50 stem? Almost sounds like a slightly bigger version of the 45 but wth 3/8" smaller flare.
The 8 5/8" 50? 100% a bach 50 stem. Im trying to get conn selmer to cut a 62 bell like it for me. Not getting my hopes up. Lol.

That does sound like a great horn. I wonder if the 88HK bell is wide enough where you make it a screwbell to be compatible with another Conn flare. I have one that I'm hanging a bass tuning slide receiver swapped out for the tenor one. At some point I was hoping to take it someone who does those conversions and see if the flares are compatible enough to make it swappable with that sweet German Shires bell I have (when I can convince my wife it would be a good investment

). I'm guessing it's a touch too narrow for that though. But a 9" or 8 5/8" for lighter, focused stuff and the 9.5" with the Kranz would be fantastically versatile.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:23 pm**

I believe Carol Jarvis has a Rath double valve tenor she uses when needed.
I recently tried a Rath R9 with a 547/562 slide and it didn't work for me - used the same amount of air as the 562 as far as I could tell playing similar Bordogni phrases on both.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:34 pm**

Mr412 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:53 pm Bass trombone is a state of mind.

I think this is actually quite accurate. Obviously there are industry standards for what you get when you buy a bass trombone today, but a competent player can convincingly play in the bass register on any horn.

I remember seeing Nate Zgonc give a masterclass session to a bass trombonist years ago, and he was giving them a hard time about consistency and power in the low register. He then proceeded to play a number of absolutely ripping loud, but perfectly controlled low Cs on a large tenor.

Two valve tenors are certainly available - I built at least one when I was at Shìres. In fact, I'm surprised that it hasn't come into vogue for high caliber soloists to play two valve tenors for ease of movement thru the trigger and pedal registers. For someone like a Marshall Gilkes who is all over the instrument anyway, having access to a chromatic bass register could open up his playing in some really interesting ways.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:08 pm**

Mr412 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:53 pm Bass trombone is a state of mind.

I agree.

I remember a thread on the old Forum (and probably a thread here on TC from not that long ago) along the same lines… with similar lines of thought. Equipment helps the player to make a bass sound, as it does with an alto. It’s easy to make a bass sound on a .562 instrument, much easier that, say a .500 bore horn. But it’s not the equipment that makes the difference. It’s the musician.

Think for a minute about the brass quintet staple Die Bankelsangerlieder. (FWIW, the “Anonymous” composer is most likely Daniel Speer.) When the two trumpets play with the trombone, the trombonist plays the bass line. Yes, it’s a relatively high bass line compared to our modern ears, but it’s a bass line. When the horn and tuba play with the trombone, the trombonist plays a tenor line. When all five instruments play, the trombonist plays a tenor or perhaps a baritone line. (Now think about playing all that on a 17th century trombone, a.k.a., a sacbut.)

Does the musician need to change instruments going from one voice to another? Of course not. The musician plays the notes ever-so-slightly differently with each different instrumentation. When playing bass, perhaps there’s a little more front to the note, maybe a little more drive to the line. When playing with the horn and tuba, the musician must make an effort to match articulation with the conical instruments. And so on.

Another way to say it: It’s the musician, not the equipment.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:41 pm**

The definition of "bass trombone" has changed drastically with time. Because as a kid I couldn't reach 7th position, I started out with a 1955 Olds A-20 Ambassador Bass Trombone. What made it a "Bass?" Compared to the straight A-15 Ambassador (0.485"/0.500" dual bore, 7½" bell), the A-20 had a 0.495"/0.510" dual bore slide, a flat-wrap F-attachment (0.515"), and 8½" bell. And a larger mouthpiece - Olds 1 vs Olds 3. But by 1970, Olds had re-badged the A-20 as a "large-bore tenor trombone with F-attachment."
How times have changed!

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:23 am**

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:41 pm The definition of "bass trombone" has changed drastically with time. Because as a kid I couldn't reach 7th position, I started out with a 1955 Olds A-20 Ambassador Bass Trombone. What made it a "Bass?" Compared to the straight A-15 Ambassador (0.485"/0.500" dual bore, 7½" bell), the A-20 had a 0.495"/0.510" dual bore slide, a flat-wrap F-attachment (0.515"), and 8½" bell. And a larger mouthpiece - Olds 1 vs Olds 3. But by 1970, Olds had re-badged the A-20 as a "large-bore tenor trombone with F-attachment."
How times have changed!

Yes, as always. There are the short simplified answers and then the full answer that takes care of all things. In time this thread will give the more complex picture. To me my simplified answer is anyone that can take care of the bass part in a way it produces a more bass like sound than the others in the section and does that on the lowest part and also has at least one valve on the horn is the bass trombonist. A mindset more than anything, in my book.

/Tom

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:27 am**

I knew this thread would go this direction. haha!

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:23 am**

And now perhaps someone will ask "Who is a bass trombonist?"

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:39 am**

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:41 pm The definition of "bass trombone" has changed drastically with time. Because as a kid I couldn't reach 7th position, I started out with a 1955 Olds A-20 Ambassador Bass Trombone. What made it a "Bass?" Compared to the straight A-15 Ambassador (0.485"/0.500" dual bore, 7½" bell), the A-20 had a 0.495"/0.510" dual bore slide, a flat-wrap F-attachment (0.515"), and 8½" bell. And a larger mouthpiece - Olds 1 vs Olds 3. But by 1970, Olds had re-badged the A-20 as a "large-bore tenor trombone with F-attachment."
How times have changed!

Ah, the A-20 (and the R-20). They wouldn't have met the criteria for a "practical modern bass trombone" when they were introduced, yet Olds called them basses. Sure, you can use one to play bass trombone parts, Heck, I did it last Saturday at Bones West; no one was playing the upper bass trombone part, so I plugged a Curry 3D into the ol' R-20 and off I went. But I think everyone would have been happier if I'd had something bigger (that combination barks in the low register).

Funny thing: I've seen a pre-WWII Olds catalog that lists three models on the page for "bass trombones". There's what eventually became the S-20 (single) and S-23 (double), but there's also something they called the "Tenor Model":

Bb with rotary change to F, 8½" bell. A large medium instrument suitable for regular trombone passage extending up into the higher register, but with pedal tones of good intonation and volume.

Sounds a lot like the precursor to the A-20/R-20/V-20. So before the war, they were calling that size of instrument a tenor, but listing it with the bass trombones (likely because it had an f-attachment).

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:41 am**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:27 am I knew this thread would go this direction. haha!

Yeah, so did I. But we had to try...

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:42 am**

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:23 am And now perhaps someone will ask "Who is a bass trombonist?"

...a trombone player who - for a variety of reasons - does not want to play tenor or alto, etc. and the parts that go with those instruments. Kinda leaves bass.

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:06 pm**

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:08 pm
Think for a minute about the brass quintet staple Die Bankelsangerlieder. (FWIW, the “Anonymous” composer is most likely Daniel Speer.) When the two trumpets play with the trombone, the trombonist plays the bass line. Yes, it’s a relatively high bass line compared to our modern ears, but it’s a bass line. When the horn and tuba play with the trombone, the trombonist plays a tenor line. When all five instruments play, the trombonist plays a tenor or perhaps a baritone line. (Now think about playing all that on a 17th century trombone, a.k.a., a sacbut.)

Originally, there would probably have been a continuo part that plays the "bass line" throughout the piece, without sudden jumps to a higher tessitura. I'm guessing Robert King changed it up a bit to give the trumpets less face time.

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:53 pm**

You don't need a 6/4 York CC to get that sound, just use your 186! It's all about state of mind.

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:56 pm**

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:06 pm
Kbiggs wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:08 pm
Think for a minute about the brass quintet staple Die Bankelsangerlieder. (FWIW, the “Anonymous” composer is most likely Daniel Speer.) When the two trumpets play with the trombone, the trombonist plays the bass line. Yes, it’s a relatively high bass line compared to our modern ears, but it’s a bass line. When the horn and tuba play with the trombone, the trombonist plays a tenor line. When all five instruments play, the trombonist plays a tenor or perhaps a baritone line. (Now think about playing all that on a 17th century trombone, a.k.a., a sacbut.)
Originally, there would probably have been a continuo part that plays the "bass line" throughout the piece, without sudden jumps to a higher tessitura. I'm guessing Robert King changed it up a bit to give the trumpets less face time.

That is indeed possible, but a tenor instrument playing the (high) bassline of a high choir is very common in polychoral music of the 17th century. It's also quite common in 5 to 7 part music that isn't polychoral to have pseudo-polychoral textures at times, in which case very typically one of the middle part will assume a dual role as a middle voice in the tutti and as "bassetto" for the simulated high choir, sometimes even having a triple role by also being the cantus of the simulated low choir.

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:08 pm**

This is the Boston Symphony Orchestra brass section of 1921. In the back row are 2 trombone players, Leroy Kenfield (Bass) and August Mausbach (2nd). Kenfield is holding a bass trombone in Bb/F with a thong operated rotor. Mausbach has a tenor with an E attachment. Principal trombone, Karl Hampe, is in the front.

Today most tenor trombonists are using equipment larger than Kenfield's.

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:26 pm**

A caveat to the "bass is a mindset" argument. I think it's important to distinguish between the bass as a role/part and bass instruments. I've made editions of music for 3 sopranos. The third (which is actually a mezzo) is effectively the bass of the trio, singing the actual bassline one or two octaves above the basso continuo. But nobody would qualify a mezzo soprano as a "bass" voice. Same if a tenor or alto trombone plays the bass of a high choir like in the example discussed above. It may be functionally and harmonically the bass, which does require adopting a bass "mindset", but that doesn't make it a bass instruments. Conversely, instruments that are truly bass instruments don't necessarily always have a bass function and can adopt a mindset that isn't that which is required to play basslines well. The cello is a bass instrument, but it can go up into the violin range, and a lot of music for the instrument doesn't treat it as a bass at all. The bassoon is originally a bass instrument, but the first bassoon in an orchestra, especially in later music, almost never plays the bass, and is effectively treated as a tenor.

I also don't quite agree with the argument that "model X is tiny but was considered a bass, therefore a modern tenor instrument that is larger is also a bass". Those earlier, smaller basses played along also smaller tenors, in a different time with a different sound concept. In the sound context of the time, they were bass trombones. There's no doubt that what a bass trombone is, in terms of actual specs, has evolved through history, so any discussion of what a bass trombone is has to be qualified according to the place, time, and type of music. The modern large bore tenor evolved from the convergence of the very cylindrical, very narrowbore French trombone and the large bore, very conical German trombone. The large bore German trombone itself started as a Bb bass trombone for solo repertoire and to a section completed by smaller instruments. It became a one-size-fits-all instrument used on all trombone parts before a larger Bb bass was developed to take over the lowest part, and now the "Bassposaune" that was sometimes called "Tenorbassposaune" has become just "Posaune" or even "Tenorposaune". Likewise the very first trombones in the 15th century likely evolved as the bass of the double reeds and brass loud band, and very much as a bass instrument, but fast forward a few decades and it is also a tenor instrument. Then a few more decades later, longer, larger and lower-pitched bass trombones appear, making the generic 9' trombone properly a tenor instrument.... Except when still used as a bass! When does a bass instrument capable of taking the role of a tenor become a tenor instrument able to play the role of the bass? It's impossible to draw a line and give a definitive answer. As much as we'd like to, it's almost always impossible to try to put things in boxes and make nice, neat categories.

So, can a modern tenor play bass parts? Yes, and no. Of course it physically can. Does that make it a bass trombone? In pretty much any modern context, it's not the most appropriate choice to play a bass trombone part, so to me, a modern tenor trombone *can* be a bass instrument in some contexts, but it's not a bass trombone.

So my answer to the original question of what makes a bass a bass? Context.

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:50 pm**

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:26 pm A caveat to the "bass is a mindset" argument. I think it's important to distinguish between the bass as a role/part and bass instruments. I've made editions of music for 3 sopranos. The third (which is actually a mezzo) is effectively the bass of the trio, singing the actual bassline one or two octaves above the basso continuo. But nobody would qualify a mezzo soprano as a "bass" voice. Same if a tenor or alto trombone plays the bass of a high choir like in the example discussed above. It may be functionally and harmonically the bass, which does require adopting a bass "mindset", but that doesn't make it a bass instruments. Conversely, instruments that are truly bass instruments don't necessarily always have a bass function and can adopt a mindset that isn't that which is required to play basslines well. The cello is a bass instrument, but it can go up into the violin range, and a lot of music for the instrument doesn't treat it as a bass at all. The bassoon is originally a bass instrument, but the first bassoon in an orchestra, especially in later music, almost never plays the bass, and is effectively treated as a tenor.

I also don't quite agree with the argument that "model X is tiny but was considered a bass, therefore a modern tenor instrument that is larger is also a bass". Those earlier, smaller basses played along also smaller tenors, in a different time with a different sound concept. In the sound context of the time, they were bass trombones. There's no doubt that what a bass trombone is, in terms of actual specs, has evolved through history, so any discussion of what a bass trombone is has to be qualified according to the place, time, and type of music. The modern large bore tenor evolved from the convergence of the very cylindrical, very narrowbore French trombone and the large bore, very conical German trombone. The large bore German trombone itself started as a Bb bass trombone for solo repertoire and to a section completed by smaller instruments. It became a one-size-fits-all instrument used on all trombone parts before a larger Bb bass was developed to take over the lowest part, and now the "Bassposaune" that was sometimes called "Tenorbassposaune" has become just "Posaune" or even "Tenorposaune". Likewise the very first trombones in the 15th century likely evolved as the bass of the double reeds and brass loud band, and very much as a bass instrument, but fast forward a few decades and it is also a tenor instrument. Then a few more decades later, longer, larger and lower-pitched bass trombones appear, making the generic 9' trombone properly a tenor instrument.... Except when still used as a bass! When does a bass instrument capable of taking the role of a tenor become a tenor instrument able to play the role of the bass? It's impossible to draw a line and give a definitive answer. As much as we'd like to, it's almost always impossible to try to put things in boxes and make nice, neat categories.

So, can a modern tenor play bass parts? Yes, and no. Of course it physically can. Does that make it a bass trombone? In pretty much any modern context, it's not the most appropriate choice to play a bass trombone part, so to me, a modern tenor trombone *can* be a bass instrument in some contexts, but it's not a bass trombone.

So my answer to the original question of what makes a bass a bass? Context.

I actually like that post!

/Tom

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:52 pm**

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:57 pm**

What makes an alto trombone an alto?
The answer is not context, I think. Or state of mind. Or size. It can have a gigantic bell and a 547 slide. Still an alto. Easy to define. Brahms and Bruckner first parts written for altos? You make a choice, play it on alto or tenor. Third parts? You can play it on anything and still call it a bass. Go figure.

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:24 pm**

Chatname wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:57 pm What makes an alto trombone an alto?
The answer is not context, I think. Or state of mind. Or size. It can have a gigantic bell and a 547 slide. Still an alto. Easy to define. Brahms and Bruckner first parts written for altos? You make a choice, play it on alto or tenor. Third parts? You can play it on anything and still call it a bass. Go figure.

Not that simple, quite a large number of historical sources describe the alto trombone as a Bb instrument, only with a smaller mouthpieces. The instrument name on the part doesn't describe a particular instrument, but a function.

Side note, Bruckner likely never wrote for alto, as the standard in his lifetime in Austria was valved tenors (and sometimes valved F bass). Of course a lot of his early writing for trombone in sacred music emulates an old style where alto trombone was in fact intended.

But I agree with you, I do think there is such a thing as a bass trombone, and a tenor trombone isn't one. What I meant by context is that what is now a bass trombone is not and cannot be compared to, say, whatever Brahms' and Bruckner's bass trombones were, or even for that matter what Brahms' bass trombone in Germany was vs. when he moved to Vienna.

A modern large bore tenor is, in the modern world, not a bass trombone, even though it is able to be a bass instrument.

But at some point it's just semantics.

Posted: **Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:28 pm**

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:24 pm
But at some point it's just semantics.

…and, perhaps, function…?

TromboneChat

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