Bach Megatone

[wingatesbone]

Hi Guys here's my quandary. I play in a Championship class Brass Band in the UK. I play 1st Trombone.

In a good brass band in the UK you need to be a jack of all trades. You need to sound Orchestral at times, then Big Band and then Military Band - ALL on one instrument. The other thing is it's on your face all the time and usually playing above Concert C in bass clef (D on third line in treble clef in Bb) constantly..

My trombone is an Elkhart Conn 88H from 1972 and it's gorgeous. I have had it since 1974.

The Mouthpiece was recommended to me by Neville Roberts and it's the Bach 4G. (I do think he was mainly concerned with an orchestral sound for obvious reasons)

Instrument and mouthpiece sound brilliant, big fat sound and yet very sweet higher up. In the past (and currently) I have had some stamina problems though because of the fact it's never off your face and I did experiment with a Denis Wick 5BL. This definitely helped with the stamina but the sound wasn't a patch on the Bach 4G. I have been thinking about it again as I'm getting older (and your stamina doesn't improve with age )

I have seen these Megatone mouthpieces by Bach and wondered if a Megatone 5G might retain most of the sound of the standard 4G but just help me out a little with stamina and high notes at the end of giggs. The rim is 25.5mm as opposed to 26mm for the 4G.

The sound/tone is everything which is why the Denis W 5BL doesn't cut it but has anybody tried the 5G Megatone and knows how they compare to a standard 4G for sound?

Thanks - I am new to this forum and loving reading all your experiences..

Russ

[BGuttman]

If you are having stamina problems on a standard 4G, going to a Megatone will make things much worse.

Incidentally, I played a Bach 4G and went to a Wick 4BL. The 4AL for me was an air hog, while the 4BL gave the sound I wanted. If I had gone to a 5BL it would have felt like wearing tight shoes.

If you are set on a Megatone, get a 4G Megatone. It's basically a 4G with more mass around it. But if it was me I'd probably stay with the 4G or experiment with a Wick 4BL

If you really want to dial things in, try a Doug Elliott system. You may find that a 102 rim with an E cup gives a nice "1st trombone" sound. Need something more symphonic? Look into the F or G cups. A 102/G/G8 will get you close to a Bach 4G size.

[Burgerbob]

The Megatone pieces also have a much, much larger throat and backbore. I don't think you'll enjoy that difference endurance wise.

There are a zillion other pieces out there that should get a great sound that were designed much more recently, I'd try some of those!

[tbonesullivan]

Wouldn't an Elkhart Conn need a modified shank to fit a Bach 4G correctly?

[Burgerbob]

Wouldn't an Elkhart Conn need a modified shank to fit a Bach 4G correctly?

Not if you put it in enough times!

[KWL]

Wouldn't an Elkhart Conn need a modified shank to fit a Bach 4G correctly?

There is a Remington shank 4G available.

https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/p ... s_id=28655

[Elow]

I have a bach 5G megatone, and a 4G megatone. Both are quite terrible. The response from my 5G is just terrible, i don’t trust myself playing it and it takes much more effort than any other of my mouthpieces. Sound from my Doug Elliott setup is better and playability is much better. I’m actually thinking about downsizing from my DE G+ to maybe a G or E. I find that smaller mouthpieces help me find my sound a lot faster without the extra effort needed. All this to say, my Bach 5G megatone was a megawaste of money.

[MrHCinDE]

I’m a fellow UK brass banded at heart and know exactly what you mean.

I have tried the 5G megatone in the past, and also the 6.5A megatone. I thought I quite liked them both at the start but sold the 5G as I never used it after the first few weeks and virtually never play the 6.5A so couldn’t really recommend the 5G at all for my chops at least, yours may be different.

In the end I was mainly playing a Rath L5 with my 88h in brass band which is similarly sized to a Bach 5G and has a rim profile somewhere between a Wick style (4AL/5AL) and my Bach 5G. Sound was great and endurance also. Since I moved away from the UK and no longer play much in brass bands, as well as playing a different trombone these days I still like the Rath L5 but have another couple of options too. If you’re not to far from Rath’s and can take your trombone over it’s definitely worth a go.

It’s a much more expensive option than a mouthpiece but a Conn medium bore SL2525 (0.525”) slide for 8h/88h is a nice option to make life a bit easier on 1st trombone…

[harrisonreed]

The Bach megatones have a huge throat and backbore and are very heavy -- the opposite of what you want for endurance in every way.

I have designed a mouthpiece that does a lot of what you are after. It has a light blank, tight throat, shallow cup, very open backbore, and goes into the leadpipe about 1/8" further than normal. The result is a mouthpiece that is very easy to play for long periods of time, blows way more openly than the throat specs would suggest (result of shank insertion depth and backbore), and has a malleable sound. It's got my rim on it though, which is good for me but I'm not you. 1.054" cup width, thin/round rim profile.

I can get you the file in a 4G size if you want.

[Posaunus]

[In my opinion] The Bach Megatone mouthpieces are dinosaurs from the era when big was [supposed to be] better. As noted, these huge-throated monsters are air hogs, and will almost surely detract from your high range as well as your endurance. Their design is far from contemporary.

I also have a gorgeous 1972 Conn 88H, and have had great success playing [1st trombone orchestral, brass quintet, concert band, trombone ensemble, ...] on a Schilke 51 mouthpiece (long shank, so that it mates with the Conn Remington receiver). Also not a modern design mouthpiece, but it sure works for me, as do several others in that size range with reasonable-size throats (including a Schilke 51C4 with Remington shank, and a few others, including a Doug Elliott setup).

[BGuttman]

Note that if you use a Bach 4 rim, a Schilke 51 will be a tad small. The Schilke 52 is the same diameter as the Bach 4.

[Posaunus]

Note that if you use a Bach 4 rim, a Schilke 51 will be a tad small. The Schilke 52 is the same diameter as the Bach 4.

The Bach 4G mouthpiece (and also the Schilke 52) may be too large (cup diameter and volume) for wingatesbone. He won't know until he has compared and played for a while. The 25.6 mm (1.01 inches) size range definitely works better for me, but I'm not him.

[wingatesbone]

Note that if you use a Bach 4 rim, a Schilke 51 will be a tad small. The Schilke 52 is the same diameter as the Bach 4.

The Bach 4G mouthpiece (and also the Schilke 52) may be too large (cup diameter and volume) for wingatesbone. He won't know until he has compared and played for a while. The 25.6 mm (1.01 inches) size range definitely works better for me, but I'm not him.

Yes I agree - the reason I tried a 5BL Denis Wick was the slightly smaller rim which served me better for high notes but the tone suffered considerably compared to the 4G Bach.

Do you think the Schilke 51 gives you a good sound maybe comparable to a 4G?
(of course I know we're all different but I do make a great sound on the 4G (if I say so myself) and want to get as close as I can to it with a slightly smaller rim for ease of embrochure when playing 1st bone and high up pretty constantly)

[BGuttman]

Just remember that nobody can say you will have a particular result from a mouthpiece unless they watch you play it.

There are a lot of people who get great sounds from a Schilke 51. Then again, the "average" size mouthpiece is a Schilke 51 or Bach 5G. You seem to like something a little bigger. I would recommend the Schilke 52 (but not the 52E2, which is a special big version). You could also try a Hammond 11 (M, MXL, XL, etc.) or Laskey 59.

You could try a Skype session with Doug Elliott for a good evaluation of your embouchuire. And Doug could suggest a setup of his stuff that will really pop.

[wingatesbone]

Just remember that nobody can say you will have a particular result from a mouthpiece unless they watch you play it.

There are a lot of people who get great sounds from a Schilke 51. Then again, the "average" size mouthpiece is a Schilke 51 or Bach 5G. You seem to like something a little bigger. I would recommend the Schilke 52 (but not the 52E2, which is a special big version). You could also try a Hammond 11 (M, MXL, XL, etc.) or Laskey 59.

You could try a Skype session with Doug Elliott for a good evaluation of your embouchuire. And Doug could suggest a setup of his stuff that will really pop.

As I said above I am playing a 4G and although the sound/tone is awesome wih this mouthpiece I am struggling with range slightly so for the parts I need to play I could do with the best alternative which is Slightly smaller - whilst still trying to get the best sound possible

- I have narrowed down between the 5G standard and the Schilke 51. But Thormann in Europe sell about 4 different 51s - There's the 51 large - 51C4 large - 51D large - 51B large - M5.1 large. There different different depth cups but mainy the same rim size - it's a minefield!

I know everybody is different but in general which of these mouthpieces would create the richer sound (for most people)? Any of the Schilkes or the 5G

Thanks for taking the time..

[Kevbach33]

These two mouthpieces have pretty different rim profiles; the Bach 5G rim is rather flat, quite unlike the rest of the Bach lineup, and also unlike the Schilke 51 rim that is a bit more rounded.

That aside, the Schilke 51 is pretty deep, deeper than the 5G, almost like a 4G in depth. I found it lacked focus and clarity (low overtones emphasized too much for me) when I play tested a few mouthpieces on my Holton 168 (a somewhat similar model to your 88H). I think the 5G would give you better results, as it did for me. But you are you, and not me.

You might also want to compare the slightly shallower Bach 5GL (based on a vintage 5G owned by Mark Lawrence that's not as deep as current production) and Schilke 51C4 (nomenclature suggests same depth as a 51, but it's not, and its rim is flatter); these would enhance the upper overtones a little more compared to a 5G. With Wick, you could try a 5ABL or 5AL.

There's a lot of options; one of these will work better than the rest. Or maybe not; that's why some folks suggested a Skype lesson with Doug Elliott.

[ithinknot]

I think your last question will be more-or-less unanswerable.

+1 to MrHCinDE's recommendation that you try a Rath L5 (plus they have a few other signature models around the 4/5 diameter) - you can't be too far from their neck of their woods so it's a cheap experiment. Since coming back to the instrument I don't play that size any more, but when I did years ago the 5-sized Raths were much better in sound and response than the corresponding Wicks. Certainly don't try the Wick 5AL - it's an absolute bucket and could well be harder work than your 4G.

Or just talk to Doug. If the stamina issues are mouthpiece related he can recommend something suitable ...and if they're not, he can do something about that too (You're assuming that smaller diameter equals easier high range based on a comparison of two mouthpieces, but that's not necessarily true for everyone, and the easier highs from the Wick 5BL might be down to the shallower cup rather than anything to do with the rim.)

[NordicTrombone]

I used to struggle with the same issue, and kind of still do, but I found that downsizing the rim made high and low range harder as well as making the sound smaller. My dynamic range also suffered.
But I guess you are located in the UK, maybe the Rath L4B.B(Brett Baker) is the solution. It's shallower than a 4G according to their web page.

[Lastbone]

I don't know how things work in the UK, but last time I needed a mouthpiece, I ordered about 12 mouthpieces and returned 11 of them. Nothing beats trying a bunch of them. Try putting a bit of colored tape over the model numbers, too, so you aren't thinking about "specs". I've always been swayed by specs and it helps to try things blind.
Good luck.

[ParLawGod]

The Bach 4G megatone and 5G megatone both have the same backbore (429) as their standard counterparts.

https://www.mouthpieceexpress.com/media ... hmouth.pdf

Aside from the blank, there is a a difference in the throat. The standard 4G/5G mouthpieces are .276, and the megatones have the slightly larger throat (.277).

However, we all know that specs on paper don't tell the true story of how a mouthpiece plays. Personally, I find the 5G megatone an improvement (for ME) over the standard 5G. I find that I am able to push louder dynamics better without breaking up, and the upper register sings a tad nicer and doesn't feel as constricted. Lower register, naturally, is a little easier.

That all being said, I much prefer my Greg Black 5G with custom .277 backbore. Comparable in specs to the 5G megatone, but wipes the floor with it. More core to the sound, better articulations, upper register more focused, lower register fuller, etc.

The megatones are imperfect mouthpieces/designs for sure, but I think they get an overly bad rap. Though I do agree that they are more work, and the payoff isn't necessarily there in terms of sound. There are better alternatives.

[Posaunus]

As I said above I am playing a 4G and although the sound/tone is awesome with this mouthpiece I am struggling with range slightly so for the parts I need to play I could do with the best alternative which is Slightly smaller - whilst still trying to get the best sound possible

I have narrowed down between the 5G standard and the Schilke 51. But Thormann in Europe sell about 4 different 51s - There's the 51 large - 51C4 large - 51D large - 51B large - M5.1 large. There different different depth cups but mainy the same rim size - it's a minefield!

I know everybody is different but in general which of these mouthpieces would create the richer sound (for most people)? Any of the Schilkes or the 5G

Thanks for taking the time..

As already noted repeatedly, everyone's experience with mouthpieces is different, so none of us can give you an ironclad recommendation.
My experience:
• Schilke 51 (played by Ralph Sauer when he was LA Philharmonic Principal) - worked well for me. Full rich orchestral sound. Good low range. Good high range (especially when I was younger and playing regularly in an orchestra).
• Schilke 51C4 (played by Byron Peebles when he was LA Philharmonic co-Principal) - different (flatter) rim than the 51, slightly smaller cup diameter (in spite of specs) and somewhat smaller cup. Better high range than the 51. Also a nice orchestral sound.
• Schilke 51B (played for a while by Chicago Symphony Orchestra Principal Jay Friedman) - shallower than the other 51s, different rim. To me this mouthpiece is unbalanced, neither fish nor fowl. I could never get along with it. Jay is different than the rest of us!
• Schilke 51D - intended as a Euphonium mouthpiece. Much deeper than a 51. Limits high range. Not a good trombone mouthpiece in my opinion.
• Bach 5G - O.K., but Bach mouthpieces are seldom my favorites. I prefer the sound (and the rims) of the Schilke 51 and 51C4.

That's one person's take. Yours may be wildly different. The only way to know is to try.
If you're still confused, contact Doug Elliott.

[CalgaryTbone]

I would suggest that you try something with a similar rim and with a bit shallower cup. Doug Elliott's 102 rim is about the same as most 4G's (some 4G's are a bit bigger - his 103 rim). Greg Black makes quite a few with his 4.5 rim, or 4. Also the NY series (formerly Alessi) and in that series, the 5 rims are actually roughly Bach 4 sized. Griego Artist (formerly Alessi) are similar to Greg's versions - again the 5 rim. In his stock mouthpieces, there's a nice 4M that you might like. In Wick's, try the 4BL or 4.5 BL (the shallower B cup will help with brilliance and endurance). Schilke 52 might be good - I think it's shallower than a 51 and is about a 4G rim.

As far as the Remington shank, I played Elkhart Conns for all my training and much of my career with Bach or Bach-style mouthpieces. I also spent some time with the Remington, or other mouthpieces with a similar shank. You do get used to whichever one you choose, and the longer shank helps in some things, but is maybe not quite as open in loud playing.

I think that a mouthpiece that is just a bit shallower will be a bit more flexible for Brass Band playing - a genre that I grew up playing. The mouthpiece makers that I just recommended all make cups that retain a lot of fullness and depth, but have a little more brilliance and point, especially in the high register than a 4G. I've always thought of the sound on a 4G makes it a great Orchestral 2nd trombone mouthpiece. A lot of Orchestral Principals are playing on cups that range between a 5GS style cup to maybe the older 5G cup which was generally slightly shallower than the more recent ones. Rim size has generally gotten bigger in recent years, but the cup choice has become a bit shallower over all. I'm currently enjoying a Greg Black mouthpiece that is based on Colin Williams' (NY Phil Associate) chosen mouthpiece with a 4.5 rim that feels great for Principal playing, but can brighten up even more for Pops repertoire, and can sound quite full in the low range too.

If you can get to a good music store, maybe they will have some stuff you can try, or reach out to a couple of these mouthpiece makers for recommendations. Good luck!

Jim Scott

[harrisonreed]

Just remember that nobody can say you will have a particular result from a mouthpiece unless they watch you play it.

There are a lot of people who get great sounds from a Schilke 51. Then again, the "average" size mouthpiece is a Schilke 51 or Bach 5G. You seem to like something a little bigger. I would recommend the Schilke 52 (but not the 52E2, which is a special big version). You could also try a Hammond 11 (M, MXL, XL, etc.) or Laskey 59.

You could try a Skype session with Doug Elliott for a good evaluation of your embouchuire. And Doug could suggest a setup of his stuff that will really pop.

As I said above I am playing a 4G and although the sound/tone is awesome wih this mouthpiece I am struggling with range slightly so for the parts I need to play I could do with the best alternative which is Slightly smaller - whilst still trying to get the best sound possible

- I have narrowed down between the 5G standard and the Schilke 51. But Thormann in Europe sell about 4 different 51s - There's the 51 large - 51C4 large - 51D large - 51B large - M5.1 large. There different different depth cups but mainy the same rim size - it's a minefield!

I know everybody is different but in general which of these mouthpieces would create the richer sound (for most people)? Any of the Schilkes or the 5G

Thanks for taking the time..

It could be that you need a different rim size, as you are suggesting, but if a 4G rim is already the right size for you, the only way to improve your endurance without practicing, and simply through equipment, is to go for something shallower, and with a tighter backbore. This changes the sound.

Why not try the Bousfield V series? He's based in the UK and has mouthpieces in that size range he suggests for British brass band. The V4 I think.

[WilliamLang]

I like the Bach megatone 4G that I have - it's not my everyday player, but it does some things real well. FWIW, and others experiences differ of course, but I never noticed endurance problems compared to other similar sized mouthpieces.

For a versatile mouthpiece I really enjoy a Laskey 57E (I've always liked deeper cups than most,) and for orchestra stuff a large rimmed Greg Black has worked well. When I played a Shilke I loved the 51D, and found that it didn't compromise any high range playing for myself (maybe an atypical set up or something.)

If you're trying to force a different sound out of a mouthpiece than what it wants, or not adjusting tuning to compensate for a new mouthpiece and end up playing out of the center of the pitch, than I can see endurance becoming an issue. But with any mouthpiece, if you make sure it works holistically with the whole instrument, you should be in roughly the same shape. (there are ups and downs the further you go of course, and this is just my opinion here)

Happy hunting!

[musicofnote]

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[tbonesullivan]

I remember being in middle school when our teacher got a megatone mouthpiece for trumpet back in the early 1990s. I got one when I was in college 5G, and it seemed to put a lot of core and zip on the horn. But, eventually I realized it didn't let me play the way I wanted, and I traded it in at Dillon. I've gotta get some stuff down there to trade in again so I can get a Markey 85 for my Bass.

[Kbiggs]

There are a lot of good recommendations here. I’m going throw out another one with which folks here on TC are quite familiar: get in touch with Doug Elliott. He’s a moderator here on the forum. Even if he thinks you’re playing on a mouthpiece that’s right for you, a lesson with him will certainly help.

Any other recommendations are, to me, beside the point until someone sees you and watches you play.

Having said that, I too have had stamina problems in the past. Moving to a different sized mouthpiece helped (in my case it was larger), retooling my embouchure helped (before I ever heard of Doug, but he has certainly helped a lot to refine it), and learning to use my air more efficiently helped (song and wind). It’s a total package.

[Thrawn22]

What everyone else has mentioned is pretty spot on.

My two cents are this:

Megatones aren't bad. The mass does very little to the sound compared i the backbore. I bought one inititally to darken/focus my sound and it actually brightened it. I used it (6 1/2A) for a couple of years before i switched to my Bach 7.

Fast forward a decade and I've found the Griego mouthpieces cover all the bases fairly well. With my 5M in my 2547 slide with my 8H or 78H bells i can get lively and dark when i need to. The CS5 i use blows great in my 88H and 8H and again, brightens and darkens well.

Without opening a can of worms, changing leadpipes can help as well. Understanding, of course, that you don't want to pull your pipe out of your vintage Conn.

[GGJazz]

Hello All .
Hi Wingatesbone !

Personally , I dont' like heavy mass mouthpieces (Megatone , Heavy Weight, ecc) .

I agree with Musicofnote , suggesting you to give a try to Wedge mpcs .
If you will result a Wedge-responder , the particolar oval shaped rim will give you a great response and comfort .

I think that probably you could appreciate a 102GS , that is about a 4G rim with a 5GS cup , and a .280 throat . Wedge mpcs are kind of medium weight , between standard and heavy .

Regards
Giancarlo

[whgear]

I used a 1/2 G megatone on my marching baritone for a period of time in high school. My impression of the piece was that it feels stuffy and hard to achieve nuance, but the sound was always big, loud, and somewhat edgy, but that could have also had to do with it being on a marching baritone. I know some people love heavyweight mouthpieces, but in my opinion, the megatones are a bit much.