TromboneChat

That's something that I've been wondering for quite some time already.

Does a different rim change your sound? I've been changing between my DE XT104 normal and medium-narrow version a bit lately and somehow I got the feeling that the sound is more full with the normal rim than with the med-narrow one (cup and shank stayed the same for both rims ofc). Is that even possible or is it just my imagination playing mind games?

What are your experiences?

Any change in feedback/vibration coupling to your skull is going to change the sound inside your head. And maybe the different profiles lead you to use slightly more or less pressure, which would do the same thing.

Acoustically, I doubt the rim shape in itself affects much of the sound compared to other components of the mouthpiece or instrument, but the rim is your interface with the instrument, and what you form your embouchure against, so it's pretty clear that any change there will affect the way you produce sound in the first place. If it changes how you play and how efficient your sound production is, then it's going to make a big impact on the sound.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:38 am Acoustically, I doubt the rim shape in itself affects much of the sound compared to other components of the mouthpiece or instrument, but the rim is your interface with the instrument, and what you form your embouchure against, so it's pretty clear that any change there will affect the way you produce sound in the first place. If it changes how you play and how efficient your sound production is, then it's going to make a big impact on the sound.

What he said

I have a set of DE lexan rims. And I have a Parker stainless rim. There is a noticeable difference in the sound produced between using the rims (for the player). Now whether that difference extends past the bell is a different issue, but for me playing, it's a big difference. I don't think it has much to do with the shape of the rim, but definitely the material.

Totally agree with the sympathetic vibration idea. That close to the face, I suspect a lot of stuff influences how we perceive our sound, which in turn provides a feedback loop that affects how we play so it doesn't directly change our sound. I tend to think that's the same for the material. Steel seems to vibrate quite differently (and certainly FEEL different) compared to other materials.

There is a difference in sound, in both widths and in materials. But I think it depends on the player, and sometimes those differences are contradictory. So the reason for the difference isn't clear to me.

I noticed a massive difference in feedback sound when I was trying out an n103 and n104 rims. I also just got a lexan n104 for the same setup and it's hugely different as well.

I have a DE XT104 gold rim and a Wedge XT104 copy, and I notice a slight difference between the two. I had an N104 at one point, and I thought that my sound wasn't as full as the regular width rim, but flexibility was easier.

Some seem to think rim has nothing to do with what sound they get. Maybe that's true for them. Many use the same rim in combination with different cup sizes to coup with different trombones. Personally I have always felt both rimsize and cupdeph have an impact of my sound, That's why I play all sizes of rims from a Bach 12E on alto to a Hammond 20BL or bigger on a bass. All things matters and have an impact of my sound, that's my experience

/Tom

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:04 am I have a set of DE lexan rims. And I have a Parker stainless rim. There is a noticeable difference in the sound produced between using the rims (for the player).

Some years back there was a paper mentioned at one of the acoustic physics conferences about that.

Of course the room sound is driven by the vibrating air column, and that air column also causes the brass structure to vibrate. That paper said that the brass gets vibration input from both the air column and the physical contact with the mouthpiece, and the percentage of the input from the contact was quite large. That kind of makes sense, the pressure variations in the air are small and the brass is stiff. Although, I would think the lips do a good bit of damping.

I tried to get a look at the actual paper but did not succeed, you had to be a member of that professional society.

At any rate, I don't think anyone past the player can hear the brass vibrations, but the player might, and the mouthpiece might have a direct effect on that.

imsevimse wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:11 pm Some seem to think rim has nothing to do with what sound they get. Maybe that's true for them. Many use the same rim in combination with different cup sizes to coup with different trombones. Personally I have always felt both rimsize and cupdeph have an impact of my sound, That's why I play all sizes of rims from a Bach 12E on alto to a Hammond 20BL or bigger on a bass. All things matters and have an impact of my sound, that's my experience

/Tom

I agree.

On my bass 'bone, I use a 5G, 3G, 1.5G and a Doug Yeo. It's for the sound and range. I'll even swap out in the middle of a song with no difficulty. It depends upon what I want, what I'm in the mood for and what I feel the song wants on any given time through.

I think if we start talking "rim size" as in cup width, then of course it makes a difference not just via how the player plays. I think the OP and most responses were referring to the width and shape/profile of the rim itself.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:37 am There is a difference in sound, in both widths and in materials. But I think it depends on the player, and sometimes those differences are contradictory. So the reason for the difference isn't clear to me.

It is also my impression that while changing other components of the mouthpiece often has a fairly predictable (even if somewhat complex) impact on intonation and/or timbre, for example (there's a clear correlation), the impact of changing the rim width, profile, material or even just surface finish, doesn't have that predictability.

I know I sound different with a rounded rim vs flat, sharp-edged or not, identical mouthpiece that has the rim silver plated vs raw brass. I even sound somewhat different if I pick up a fresh and polished one vs mine that's got a deep satin-y patina, just because the feeling on my lips is so different. I'm sure some of my colleagues would also hear and feel a difference between these changes, but I don't think the differences would necessarily go in the same direction it does for me.

The rim shape will impact articulations and "purchase" into the cup, so it will impact the sound. A fatter rim also adds mass, which changes how the mouthpiece plays. Everything affects everything

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:02 pm The rim shape will impact articulations and "purchase" into the cup, so it will impact the sound. A fatter rim also adds mass, which changes how the mouthpiece plays. Everything affects everything

I've always thought so, too. Some may argue that it's all in our head. Well, that's kinda where music IS for me.

Intuitively, a narrower rim of the same inside diameter would likely allow the player's face to sink somewhat deeper into the cup, in effect making for a shallower mouthpiece. I think that's the case for me, at any rate.

Oh man, so easy to get crazy with this one. I've seen the impact a rim can have first hand. There are players so used to one particular design, just changing the rim width renders them incapable of playing the mouthpiece. There are other players where it makes absolutely no difference at all. And on the other end, a thin rim can cause players to tap out quickly where they dont like the feeling of the crown. Then there's bite from the rim, which is also a varied preference. Mouthpiece placement also greatly changes ones preferences.

I play close to 50/50, and for me the go to is zero bite, and a big ole rim with a low crown. Allows me to play my best with zero fatigue. I absolutely despize thin rims, or any kind of radius that will cut into my face. So I guess in the sense of comfort yes, the rim with have am impact upon what is generated sound wise, particularly over any given period of time.

Weight at the rim doesn't change the sound so much as it changes the feel. I find less feedback goes back to my chops with a bunch of mass there. It's neither good nor bad, just is. As far as the material, It certainly makes a difference in the sound the player recieves as feedback. How far the difference travels is debatable. Now changing the whole rim and cup to a different material has significant changes to sound.

So I guess the answer is possibly, but not definitely?

Yes, maybe I misunderstood the op. I thought if rimzise but now I understand it is the thickness of the rim or the edge of the rim or the grip against the lips. Yes, this definitely effects how I sound on a mouthpiece, especially articulation and flexibility. If the rim is thick I find it very difficult to play, because the result I get will be had. I like thinner rims better. I think width, grip, edge of mouthpiece rim is crucial for me. I like the Bach series of rims and the Hammond series. Among the Bachs I find the 12C and 7C to have a bit harder grip on my lips so I need more time to adjust to them. The Mount Vernon Bach 12C feel different, it's more like a 11C rim.

/Tom

Just to make it clear, although it's written in the OG post I think: I'm talking about just changing the rim and keeping everything below. Easiest to explain with Doug Elliott system: For example having a XT E cup with an XT E4 shank and just changing between different rims

And the rim change is between a regular width and my medium-Narrow, which is only a small difference.

I go back and forth between my Narrow (N104) and mN104 and don't notice any difference at all. I could feel it when I first tried the mN but now I don't even know which is on my mouthpiece. The regular 104 feels terrible on my face, it's just too wide so I don't know (or care) about the sound.

My feeling is that any time you do a direct A/B comparison (with anything, not just rims), there will be an immediate noticeable difference. But after a short time (enough time) getting used to each, the difference goes away or is greatly minimized.

I use both Lexan and silver rims, and other than temperature I hardly even notice which it is.

Day to day variance from weather changes, and how much I've been playing, is much more noticeable.