TromboneChat

I've played most of the big name contras at ITF and festivals in Europe. By no means am I a contrabass expert or an amazing player of it... but I have put in serious time on my own '60s opera wrap German contra to understand the instrument.

Every time I went around and played these horns at shows, the same things popped up. Most of the contras were pretty good contrabass trombones- big sounding low registers. That's really all people seem to look for! Two horns have always stood out to me. The Rath at ITF seemed like a pretty good instrument, in that it was more than just a low register. It seemed more like a trombone.

I have played 4 Laetzsch contras at festivals. All of them blew me away in the fact that they were actually amazing trombones, not just contrabass trombones. All the registers work. They respond to normal inputs. I don't have to qualify my compliments for them.

Of course, there is a price to pay for that kind of design and build quality, so I just put them out of mind. After all, I have a functional, good sounding instrument already (that doesn't really get used in real life!).

Well, somehow I lucked into a great deal on a Laetzsch. It's exactly what I would want if I had ever thought about getting one myself- carbon fiber Full-Flow valves, German tuning of F/D/BBb/AAb.

Am I suddenly going to get thousands of contra gigs? Probably not... but boy howdy do I have the horn to use for them if that happens.

And perhaps even more surprisingly, it's just as good as I remembered!

Congratulations on securing a beautiful instrument!

I played on a F|C|Db|A version at ITF 2018. Loved the instrument.

Great catch! I hope we'll get to hear some demonstration.

Jealous.

Enjoy the multiple handy attachment alternates available with the thumb-trigger minor-third tuning!

It might be nice if someone were to offer a directly comparable tenor-bass tuned Bb/G-Eb-Db or a "real bass" tuned G/E-C-Bb, the latter being considerably more compact and lighter than the F/D-Bb-Ab bass-contrabass.

Congrats!!

Really nice looking horn!

What are the specs of the bore, the bell and the valve section - if you happen to know?

Sesquitone wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 9:08 am Enjoy the multiple handy attachment alternates available with the thumb-trigger minor-third tuning!

It might be nice if someone were to offer a directly comparable tenor-bass tuned Bb/G-Eb-Db or a "real bass" tuned G/E-C-Bb, the latter being considerably more compact and lighter than the F/D-Bb-Ab bass-contrabass.

I've been using this for a few years on my other contra, which thankfully has the same tuning. In fact, on that horn I had to play every 5th position note on the D side.

I think on long slide instruments it makes a lot of sense. There's only a couple downsides, with F# and F being quite far apart, and low B and Bb being quite far apart on the slide.

On a G trombone I think it would be nearly ideal tuning as well- you're right! On Bb bass trombone I don't think it would be my cup of tea, since I don't need to scoot in slide positions nearly as often.

Digidog wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 9:36 am Congrats!!

Really nice looking horn!

What are the specs of the bore, the bell and the valve section - if you happen to know?

Bore size is .585, valves are .650, bell is 10.63".

Nickel slide, gold brass crook, gold brass everywhere else (including the valve casings!).

The Lätzsch website for this instrument lists:
Bore: 14.9 mm/0.586"
Bell: 270 mm/10.63"
Valves: 16.50 mm/0.650"

Does this mean that the bore of the attachments' tubing is also 16.5 mm throughout? If so, that would be a huge jump in bore size between slide and attachments--a 23% increase in cross-sectional area. For comparison, traditional bore sizes for large-bore Bb tenors and basses involve only a 6% jump in slide-to-attachment cross-sectional areas. [And even that relatively small value can sometimes cause "attachment problems" such as: flat and stuffy attachment second harmonics, sharp and uncentered attachment third harmonics, and unreliable attack response.]

From the various photos, it appears that there is very little difference in bore size between the slide and attachment tubing (and the beginning of the long gooseneck). If this is correct, it could explain why this instrument feels and sounds more like a "trombone" (rather than a "slide-tuba", for example).

Perhaps a direct measurement of the inside diameter of the attachments' tubing would clear up this question.

Sesquitone wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 2:29 pm huge jump in bore size between slide and attachments

German trombones traditionally feature larger attachment bores than American designs, of at least the full bore of the outer slide or even greater. It's just one part of a design concept, percentatory numberwang notwithstanding.


Anyway... congrats on the megahonk.

I'll measure it when I get home!

In any case... The horn is very even and the valves feel great.

Big Beautiful Bone (BBB for short). I love how the BBb wrap is largely contained within the body.

That D slide looks an awful lot like the Gb valve on a Holton 181 (plebian comparison, I know). If that comes apart in two sides, you could also have an F/Eb/BBb/bAA (I think) contra. However, I do agree that a D valve makes more sense on an instrument in F. It's also why the Bb/F/D bass trombone, dependent or independent (Gb 2nd), just works. (But I also like Bb/F/G...)

Sesquitone wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 2:29 pm

Perhaps a direct measurement of the inside diameter of the attachments' tubing would clear up this question.

.650 right on the money!

Kevbach33 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:35 pm

That D slide looks an awful lot like the Gb valve on a Holton 181 (plebian comparison, I know). If that comes apart in two sides, you could also have an F/Eb/BBb/bAA (I think) contra. However, I do agree that a D valve makes more sense on an instrument in F. It's also why the Bb/F/D bass trombone, dependent or independent (Gb 2nd), just works. (But I also like Bb/F/G...)

Yes, old German tuning is F/Eb/BBb/AA. I think it's a bit silly as a tuning, as it puts some required notes really, really far out on the slide with no real upsides. Thankfully this comes with the extender to D. My old contra (for sale now) came with Eb but had a D slide made to make it more useful.

How do you like the support of the back of the hand rest for managing the weight?

vetsurginc wrote: ↑Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:20 am How do you like the support of the back of the hand rest for managing the weight?

On this horn it seems to be fine. I don't like this type of rest on bass trombone but here it works! The horn is so balanced that it's really just to get the weight off the fingers.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 5:35 pm carbon fiber Full-Flow valves

I'm not sure what exactly they make these out of, but it's not carbon fiber per se, which is a weave of carbon strands suspended in a resin. There is no weave of strands on these valves, it's a solid block. Perhaps carbon dust pressed into a billet with some sort of binder. They are really awesome valves whatever they are made of.

They call them carbon fiber, I'm not sure what we would call them for real. They aren't forged carbon either I assume.

bbocaner wrote: ↑Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:59 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 5:35 pm carbon fiber Full-Flow valves

I'm not sure what exactly they make these out of, but it's not carbon fiber per se, which is a weave of carbon strands suspended in a resin. There is no weave of strands on these valves, it's a solid block. Perhaps carbon dust pressed into a billet with some sort of binder. They are really awesome valves whatever they are made of.

Perhaps machined from a block of solid graphite.
Great surprisingly durable material.

I doubt it would be graphite. Graphite is too soft. My guess is some kind of filled resin; probably molded into a billet and machined.

You're right, by the way- Laetzsch themselves call them "carbon rotors," not carbon fiber. My bad!

They are just coal with super glue lol

That thing looks awesome btw

Awesome!...

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 30, 2022 5:13 pm I doubt it would be graphite. Graphite is too soft. My guess is some kind of filled resin; probably molded into a billet and machined.

Maybe not pure graphite (which is sturdy and easily machinable, but perhaps too soft), but possibly some form of solid carbon block, such as the material used for electrodes, etc.

Perhaps someone can contact Lätzsch for more information.

Here's a couple videos:

What is better than one contrabass trombone?

THREE contrabass trombones.

But I demand to see 76 contrabass trombones!

How difficult is it to play those in tune together? Seemed like you guys were locking in pretty fast

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:37 pm But I demand to see 76 contrabass trombones!

Best I can do is four:

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:37 pm

How difficult is it to play those in tune together? Seemed like you guys were locking in pretty fast

As long as everyone is putting out a solid pitch center, not too hard. That pitch center can be pretty difficult to find on some instruments of course.

Finally used this horn on a real gig... That's a nice check on how often contra is used. Check the original post for how long I've had this horn, plus another contra (also never used!) for several years before that.

It was a blast, though: Nightmare Before Christmas suite and some Pirates of the Carribean.

At this rate, even your great-great-grandchild may struggle to pay off the inflation-adjusted amortization.
It's a great thing that this horn puts such a big smile on your face.

When do we get to hear some sound clips of it in the wild.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 7:25 pm Finally used this horn on a real gig... That's a nice check on how often contra is used.

What - no small-bore tenor?

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 3:37 pm

What - no small-bore tenor?

I only played bass and contra on this concert- I get plenty of small bore time at work!

MahlerMusic wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 3:09 pm

When do we get to hear some sound clips of it in the wild.

Nothing from this, unfortunately.