TromboneChat

Anyone else remember a movie from the 1970s called The Sting? Paul Newman, Robert Redford. It was set in the Depression (appropriately enough, for the depressed 1970s) and featured a score edited by Marvin Hamlisch. It was almost all Scott Joplin music, popular about 50 years before the period depicted in the movie. Marvin explained that the "spirit of the music" matched the mood of the movie well. Okay then.

I always wished someone had done the soundtrack in 1930s music, as appropriate to the context. How cool would THAT be? And to quote from Redford's character in the movie, "There's always a depression on" .

I agree it's a bit anachronistic but not by 50 years.

Joplin's "The Entertainer" was published in 1902. His music was still getting sold on piano rolls and recorded at least into the 1920s.

Of course, in the 1970s hardly any one had any clue about the timeline of Joplin... it seemed entirely plausible to me.

In film criticism they say that movies are always more about the time they were made than the time they purport to portray.

It's not the Great Depression, it's what the 1970s want you to think about the Great Depression.

I think a movie made with authentic 30s music might be quite tedious. The small collection of hits we recall from the 1930s are mostly things that have persisted because of their presence in movies.

However, when I listen to old 1930s radio shows... the kind where there was a band playing popular music... it is usually the most forgettable ballroom dance stuff. That is what they found the listeners were tuning in for.

So, yeah, Joplin not quite right but... gets the job done.

It's not in line with anything anyone ever said, but the music makes sense to me in the context of Newman's character being something of a has-been, back in the game for a big score. Joplin's music would have been popular when the character was younger and the world was his oyster.

But that's just my interpretation, unsupported by anything I could find with a quick Google...

Is a great movie. They don't make movies like that anymore. Instead we get Spiderman Reboot 7 Movie 17

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:55 pm ... The small collection of hits we recall from the 1930s are mostly things that have persisted because of their presence in movies.

However, when I listen to old 1930s radio shows... the kind where there was a band playing popular music... it is usually the most forgettable ballroom dance stuff. That is what they found the listeners were tuning in for.

Maybe this is a little off topic, but I would say the majority of what's known as "The Great American Songbook" was written in the 1930's and into the 40's.

And yes, those songs were in a lot of movies because they were GREAT songs, and still are.

It's great to see all these comments - I thought the topic might be too obscure. Yes, the movie was a classic.

Another reason that Joplin music was decided upon was probably its ready availability. Lots of people still did and do enjoy ragtime. My dad was a really good ragtime piano player and had a book of Joplin pieces 2 inches thick.
Obtaining decent arrangements of late 20s-30s music may have been a little tricky.
And yes, it was the golden era of the American Songbook and the beginning of the big band era. Ragtime is just ragtime, fun though it may be.

That the Great American Songbook was mostly written in the 1930s and 40s is rather different than most of the songs written in the 1930s and 40s being on the level of the Great American Songbook. There's a lot of dreck.

"The Sting" was ostensibly set in 1936. That's early-ish, but there would be decent songs to choose from among the dreck.

But to what end? "The Sting" isn't a musical.

The Joplin music has the advantage of setting moods without making an obvious statement. If you put "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime" in there or "I'm in the Mood for Love" you're probably getting too on-the-nose.

I'm sure there are other solutions. I wonder if anything else was ever in the running?

According to Wiki, using Joplin was the choice of the director, George Hill... also noted for directing "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid", also noted for its anachronistic music. Hmmm.

Interesting stuff, robcat. The Sting was not a musical yet the soundtrack sold fairly well, if not mistaken. Then again so did American Graffiti. I just thought that in an era when a trombone was being played in every nightclub, burlesque show and pit band, on most recordings and more, that it would have been nice to have that kind of instrumentation in a 1930s movie.

Just because they used piano only for "The Sting" doesn't mean that Joplin's music wasn't played in ensembles using a trombone. A typical jazz band of the time would have cornet, clarinet, trombone, maybe a sax, tuba, banjo or piano, tuba, and drums.

I have some arrangements of Joplin tunes for "Theater Orchestra" (2 violins, viola, cello, flute, clarinet, 2 cornets, trombone, bass, and drums). Gunther Schuller made an arrangement called "The Red Back Book" using orchestral strings, and reduced winds/brass (including one trombone).

But Joplin had originally written all those pieces for piano.

Thanks Bruce, some really good points here. I think I heard of the Red Back Book too.

You might even have played it. Lowell Phil has a copy.

I presume that using piano-only was calculated to create an "old-timey" feel, something quite separate from the present... in whatever naive way that people of the 1970s imagined "old-timey" to be.
A more conventional instrumental ensemble wouldn't quite do that as much.

Old-time is how naive me perceived it at the time. And adults then might have had some dim cultural memory of piano players accompanying movies.


The late 60s early 70s was rather a low point for movie scores, IMHO. There were still hit sound track albums but this sound track seems to be a rare hit in that era that wasn't driven by a song written for the movie.

No one could go on Carson and sing "The Theme from 'The Sting'".

I've never seen words for the Joplin rags. I just remember them being instrumentals. And I think "The Entertainer" is as close as you will get to a "Theme from The Sting".

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:29 pm I've never seen words for the Joplin rags. I just remember them being instrumentals.

That just about guarantees that some will turn up...



Those lyrics were, however, created for that sketch.

But maybe there are some other lyrics around? Created by a publisher, maybe.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:17 amThose lyrics were, however, created for that sketch.

I don't think so. I remember seeing a piano score (part of a fairly thick book) from around the time "The Sting" came out that had lyrics.

Being a rather cynical chap, I'm wondering if the lyrics were added for copyright purposes. You couldn't copyright the music, but you could copyright new lyrics.

JohnL wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:56 pm

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:17 amThose lyrics were, however, created for that sketch.

I don't think so. I remember seeing a piano score (part of a fairly thick book) from around the time "The Sting" came out that had lyrics.

Being a rather cynical chap, I'm wondering if the lyrics were added for copyright purposes. You couldn't copyright the music, but you could copyright new lyrics.

I wonder if they are the same lyrics.

Since I'm more cynical than you... the Muppets might have written their own lyrics to avoid licensing the published ones, as the music was already PD?

IMSLP has the original engravings of a bunch of the pieces used in "The Sting". No lyrics included.

Joplin died in 1917. All his music should be Public Domain, although at the time of "The Sting" it may not have been.

Here we go, these must be "the lyrics"... by John Brimhall?

These are the lyrics sung by Berle and the Muppets (except for his reprise at the end, which is original to the show), the lyrics that appear on every "song lyics" site I checked and are probably the ones JohnL saw all those years ago.

Brimhall...Wiki: John Brimhall (November 22, 1928 - December 2, 2003) was an American musical arranger and author of books on music composition, theory, and performance... is clearly not a contemporary of Joplin so JohnL's theory that they were created in the 70s for copyright purposes is likely correct.