TromboneChat

I guess this is a real thing. Except for the instruments in the backing track.

"Just plain Yogurt".

It sounds like the kind of song you hear at the beginning of a sci-fi horror video game. You're in the main welcome lobby with this video and song playing:

"Welcome to Europa, marine. We'll get you up to speed on the situation once you've checked into the barracks."

You open the next door and the are aliens eating the scientist NPCs.

It's got that cheesy, 1950s dystopian recruitment propaganda vibe .... I like it.

Sounds like it should have been in the sci-fi movie "Starship Troopers".

An old friend in the USAF Band in Washington, D.C. used to refer to the Band as "The U.S. Forced Air Band". It appears that the US Space Force has received the message -------- .

The Star Trek badge... The Air Force cross Army song... and "from on high"?!?!

I would say it's awful but it's so unmemorable that my opinion doesn't last long enough to write it down.

A bit trite and cheesy.
That's OK.
I'm very glad that we now have a Space Force in our defense system.

I'm not familiar with this composer. Anyone know him from their military band stint?


US Space Force adopts ‘Semper Supra’ as official song

U.S. Air Force veteran James Teachenor, a singer/songwriter formerly of the Air Force band in Colorado Springs, created the lyrics and melody. He was a prior member of the U.S. Air Force band at the Air Force Academy.

“It was quite a long work in progress for a while, because I wanted to make sure that everything that was in the song would adequately represent all the capabilities that our Space Force is involved with,” Teachenor said in a statement.

And to link it to trombone, from the NYT article:
He then collaborated with Sean Nelson, chief musician, trombonist and arranger in the U.S. Coast Guard Band, who said that Mr. Teachenor “wanted me to help add the harmony and to orchestrate it.”

It needed help long before the harmony and orchestration

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Muhaha! That was cheesy!

'Are we being punked?': Space Force theme song becomes comedy fodder

Space Force gets an official song but it's not music to everybody's ears. CNN's Jeanne Moos reports on the musical mockery.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/2022/ ... ng-videos/

Interesting that ALL the other services has service ACHIEVEMENTS to commemorate BEFORE they had "service songs." It took the Merchant Marine until 1943 to take on a song. Arguably, if we consider privateering and blockade running as service, the Merchant Marine existed before even the Army.

I hope the song is not representative of the level of service the politicians are expecting from the Space Force. IMHO all our service people merit FAR more respect and consideration than the pols give them, and I don't say that just because I served a few years.

I would wish a FAR better song for the new service, and some space (no pun intended) for them to show their stuff before being saddled with tripe.

Military . com:

Space Force Unveiled Its Official Service Song. It's Not a Banger.

[Teachenor] said he texted Raymond and Chief Master Sergeant of the Space Force Roger Towberman that he wanted to be involved in crafting the song. The senior leaders took him up on the offer.

Shouldn't there have been competitive bidding on this? Or maybe there was... and this was the lowest bidder.

I put together things from reading, you know, white papers and speaking with Gen. Raymond and Chief Towberman," Teachenor said

That is what's wrong with the other service songs... not enough white papers!

Gen. Charles "CQ" Brown Jr., the chief of staff of the Air Force, was asked by reporters later Tuesday morning about his thoughts on the song. He said he didn't want to judge it but added, "I'm sure it will grow on us."

Also said about toe fungus.

Yikes

This looks like it was a contender. I swear that guy at the end is a storm trooper. Not sure it's much better. They should have just used the Star Wars Imperial March theme and been done with it.

But hold it - there is no sound in space. Where does the condensation in your trombone go when you play in space? Too many unanswered questions.

Actually, there is a vibration in space. It's a Bb but probably Bb(-1000). Its frequency is measured in cycles per year.

As to the condensate, it won't drip in space since there's no gravity to cause it to seek a different level (of lower potential energy). I guess we could cause it to collect in the slide crook if we spun the trombone like a majorette's baton (make sure the slide lock is on).

Trump made a mistake. We don't need a Space Force. We need a Cyber Force. The next war is going to be fought between hackers.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:09 pm Trump made a mistake. We don't need a Space Force. We need a Cyber Force. The next war is going to be fought between hackers.

We need both a Space Force and a Cyber Force..
True, we are vulnerable to computer hackers who will attack the entire computer network that we have come to rely on extensively for nearly all facets of our existence.
But in addition, we have hundreds of satellites in orbit that are vulnerable to attack and destruction. Those satellites are essential to weapons targeting, navigation, communication, spying, and many other areas of operating our country and defending it against our adversaries. Satellites are also the ultimate delivery system for nuclear weapons that can orbit until called upon to hit a target with pinpoint accuracy. The next war will be between Cyber computer hackers, and also a Space War directed at defending our satellites and destroying the adversary's satellites. Hopefully, the Pentagon has secretly prepared our defenses for the Space Threat. Scary stuff.

Incidentally, the Air Force does have a Cyber command, one branch of which is near here at Hascom Field. It's part of CCC (Command, Control, Communications -- now with Networking).

I'm sure the USAF is also concerned with the satellites since they are part of the Communications system.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:49 am Incidentally, the Air Force does have a Cyber command, one branch of which is near here at Hascom Field. It's part of CCC (Command, Control, Communications -- now with Networking).
I'm sure the USAF is also concerned with the satellites since they are part of the Communications system.

True, Bruce, and Hanscom was once a top contender for Cyber Command HQ, but the Army got it instead (Ft Meade?). That would have changed everything; the working populace would have doubled and the money would have flowed like never before. Enough to fund a band again? Who knows. On the flip side, the Bedford rush hour traffic jams would have been epic.

The real issue with a Space Force song (whether we like how it sounds or not) is that there will never be a Space Force band to play it. It won't get funded. At most the song will be recorded by an Air Force band and distributed around.

Off we go, into the empty black yonder!

CharlieB wrote: ↑Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:58 am The next war will be between Cyber computer hacker...

A woman across the street from me is a retired software engineer who worked at Nortel, the same company I used to work for.

She says all of our networks... telephone, internet, power grid... are compromised by Chinese malware and spyware.

"All of it... even the military networks."

I have no idea if she's correct but it would be unsurprising since "all of it" is either privately owned or privately produced and private companies in the West have been terrible at protecting their technology secrets from espionage and infiltration.



Did a Chinese Hack Kill Canada’s Greatest Tech Company?

The documents began arriving in China at 8:48 a.m. on a Saturday in April 2004. There were close to 800 of them: PowerPoint presentations from customer meetings, an analysis of a recent sales loss, design details for an American communications network. Others were technical, including source code that represented some of the most sensitive information owned by Nortel Networks Corp., then one of the world’s largest companies...

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:09 pm We need a Cyber Force...

The highest level of US "cyber" warfare seems to be United States Cyber Command (USCYBERCOM) which ostensibly unifies the efforts of the several service's cyber-warfare units such as the Army's ARCYBER.

I think some ear buds and a cellphone would have been good additions to the eagle on this heraldry...



It holds an equal place on the org chart with boots-on-the-ground regional commands like the US European Command or the US Central (Asia) Command

The Army is having trouble, as is the military as a whole, with recruitment lately. Cyber is beyond important today, as is the Space domain, but the armed forces don't pay nearly enough to attract the talent required, and the entry and employment requirements are not really consistent with the talent pool either.

"We need you on the bleeding edge of space/cyber know how and technical proficiency. Starting wage is $20K, give or take. And you need to be up at 0530 everyday so you can workout at 0600 in order to be fit enough to engage our enemies in close combat. Most of your time will be dedicated online training that is unrelated to your job, and administrative tasks. Last we checked the amount of required annual training would take longer than one year if done to standard."

The officer payscales are more attractive, but at least in the current services after your 3rd year in the military, 95% of an officer's time is dedicated to administrative paperwork, human resource functions, and evaluations.

I suppose you could attract more talent if these branches mostly consisted of warrant officers, or if they brought back the tech-spec (technical specialist) ranks of the past.

I'm not knocking the Army or the other branches, but for us to compete for the real talent pool that corporate America has access to, we might need to change something.

Patriotism goes only so far when you need to do SERIOUS study for years at a university to gain the skillset that is really needed for these jobs, and candidates are looking for jobs that pay $100k, not E4 pay.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:55 pm I'm not knocking the Army or the other branches, but for us to compete for the real talent pool that corporate America has access to, we might need to change something.

I think they are working on the appropriate recruiting. One of my CG friend's son has gotten a full ride at University of OK as a programming/coding/whatever major with a several year commitment to the military upon graduation. I presume he's one of many.

He appears rugged enough to get up at 6AM if that should be necessary. Will have to cut his hair, however.

So it looks like they are doing more than re-assigning Typist First Class to a computer console.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:56 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:55 pm I'm not knocking the Army or the other branches, but for us to compete for the real talent pool that corporate America has access to, we might need to change something.

I think they are working on the appropriate recruiting. One of my CG friend's son has gotten a full ride at University of OK as a programming/coding/whatever major with a several year commitment to the military upon graduation. I presume he's one of many.

He appears rugged enough to get up at 6AM if that should be necessary. Will have to cut his hair, however.

So it looks like they are doing more than re-assigning Typist First Class to a computer console.

They want to retain people for 20+ years, with a pay cap that's around $65k, maybe a bit more with a housing allowance.

And no. The Army wasn't even close to its recruiting goal this year. We will have a very under strength force.

I doubt these people count as recruits until they graduate and are "in uniform".

So, four-year lead time on efforts like this. That addresses the multi-year training part.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:40 pm I doubt these people count as recruits until they graduate and are "in uniform".

So, four-year lead time on efforts like this. That addresses the multi-year training part.

There must be some kind of miscommunication going on here. The military is currently failing to entice even high school educated young people to sign up just to do the jobs you normally associate with the military, with pay that is competitive with similar jobs in the private sector, using bonuses and free college as a carrot. The free school comes after you perform the job, which in this case seems completely backwards.

When you look at the level of education and training you need in the private sector to actually be good at cyber warfare/security and sending rockets into outer space, and then look at the pay people get to do those jobs vs what the military would pay, it's absolute peanuts. People wouldn't be coming in as officers to "conduct cyber warfare" or prep satellites, those are enlisted jobs, or maybe warrant officer jobs. Who cares about free school when the private sector might pay you $150k depending on your skillset as a starting salary? Or perhaps you serve your four years and earn your free school, and immediately take your skills to a much higher bidder.

Would you want to be paid the same as an Army short order cook if your job was to perform safety inspections of spacecraft or conduct cyber defense against near-peer enemy states?

Back when I first graduated from college, I interviewed for a job at the Naval Air Rework Facility (NARF) in Alameda, CA. While it was run by the US Navy, the engineers and technicians were all civilian workers so they could be paid salaries that were more competitive with similar jobs at private companies. I have to wonder how much of Space Systems Command is organized in the same way. I do know that The Aerospace Corporation is very closely aligned with Space Systems Command.

That wouldn't surprise me actually. Intelligence works the same way -- civilians making $150K+ doing the actual intelligence work, making useable products, and green suiter "intelligence specialists" that deliver the products to the unit.

Those analysts were all former green suiters that got out and got rehired....

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:52 pm

There must be some kind of miscommunication going on here.

Yes, you just keep repeating the same objections even after I answer them.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:52 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:52 pm

There must be some kind of miscommunication going on here.

Yes, you just keep repeating the same objections even after I answer them.

One more try - you're talking about one kid getting 4 years of free college prior to entry into the military. That's almost certainly a commissioned officer program, which would not lead to the type of professional the military wants on the business end of the Cyber and Space domain's pointed stick. Officers in the military do not actually do the job that you would think they do in their branch after they make captain. They are commanders and executive officers, not techs or engineers. So the programmers, technicians, etc, doing the actual work in those fields, that would benefit from college prior to entry, won't be doing that on the government's dime. The GI bill you earn is used after you've already served in the military and met the requirements, which is not as enticing to someone who already has a degree. Why enter the military to earn money towards more education when you are already educated and want to work and be paid well in cyber or space defense?

Rob's point is that the Military needs to revise the MOS and pay scales in order to attract the kind of talent needed for Cyber and Space.

I had a friend who went into the Military after 4 years at New England Conservatory and played in an Army Band (Viet-Nam era). He had to go as a NCO. Pay scales were modest. But musicians don't have earnings like Computer Programmers unless you happen to be a very rare individual.

If the Military wants to attract people of the caliber needed for Cyber Warfare they either need to draft them or modify the pay scales to match salary in industry.

Note: they draft Doctors and working doctors are in middle Officer grades.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:48 am Rob's point is that the Military needs to revise the MOS and pay scales in order to attract the kind of talent needed for Cyber and Space.

If the Military wants to attract people of the caliber needed for Cyber Warfare they either need to draft them or modify the pay scales to match salary in industry.

Note: they draft Doctors and working doctors are in middle Officer grades.

This is actually the point I was trying to make. Rob was talking about college as a carrot.

I'm thinking Harrison was on the right track when he mentioned warrant officers, but there's a rub: the Air Force doesn't have warrant officers, and the Space Force inherited the Air Force rank structure.

According to this article, the Space Force is looking at the possibility of creating warrant officer grades.

Note that the article linked above also mentions that roughly a third of the Space Force's uniformed personnel are enlisted.

I served 26 years in the Air Force bands program. The military can do whatever it wants with rank levels, but the question is WILL they? They didn't need to do anything with the regional bands since great players have been clamoring to come in for a long time, even at "peon" starting rank. No need to pay for sign-on bonuses or extra stripes when the recruits are a steady stream and high quality.

The long established accelerated rank program when joining the DC bands starts 'em off at E5 out of basic. That originated long ago to be competitive with "civilian full time music performing opportunities" (which basically no longer exist, frankly). Something similar with rank could be done for the cyber force, but Congress would have to approve the funding.
BTW E3 compensation starts at about $30K now, and a 20 year E7 can get up to $93K depending on the housing allowance rates.

Reports on the web paint varying pictures but according to this article the recruiting shortfalls are in the Army and Navy.

Through April, the Army had recruited 68% of its goal, 8,282 soldiers fewer than its target. The Navy had a shortfall of 1,473 sailors, or 8% short of its goal. The Air Force, Marine Corps and Space Force all had met or exceeded their targets.

Aside from the current low-unemployment economy, shortfalls are blamed on the poor physical and legal fitness of many candidates. The economy is a temporary blip. Slothful teenagers may be with us for a while.


But the Military and National Security establishment have huge budgets and have the resources to get what they want. If conventional recruiting should consistently fail they will spend what it takes to get people some other way, as John noted.

I think that something significant is being left out of the equation comparing civilian and military occupations. In military service there are a lot of benefits that come with the job. Post Exchange [PX] privileges -- medical care -- educational vouchers -- mess hall access. Don't laugh. Even in basic training we had a mess hall that was remarkable with a chef that rivaled most restaurants [not the norm]. The PX prices for everything including groceries were far lower than civilian prices. Once retired, a lot of those privileges still apply. The Veterans Administration [VA] provides access to medical care and prescriptions to qualified retirees. A prescription that is unaffordable to a civilian is a fraction of the price through the VA. There are many areas in which the dollar comparison suffers, but when summing up, it is a choice that offers security versus independence. As they say when you sign up, "We own your ass 24/7". Maybe I've oversimplified it, but there are a lot of other considerations to be made other than the $$$$. NO --- I'm not in the military.

Space Force DFAC is like:



FWIW, starting pay for E3 is $25k, pre-tax. Not very competitive for the technical enlisted job that involves tracking and maneuvering spacecraft, and de-conflicting orbits, "Space Systems Operator".

Yes, housing is a MASSIVE bonus payment that makes it more attractive.

To Rob's credit, I looked into the MOS structure for the Space Force, and since it is based on the Air Force, some of the technical jobs could fall into the officer ranks, just like with being a pilot in the air force. However, I suspect that by the time you pin Major, your days of conducting actual technical tasks are nearly over, even in the Space Force. This alone severely limits your upward pay potential if you want to actually do a technical job, rather than manage others who are doing that job.

For the cyber stuff, I couldn't make heads or tails of it. It appears that they want to keep the technical jobs in the enlisted ranks, but I would bet a lot of it is contracted to highly skilled civilians.

Thanks harrisonreed for this good info. Yes, E3 and other low ranks can boast a much higher pay rate if housing allowance is added. HOWEVER, one has to be married or at least have legal dependents to qualify for the housing allowance. No exceptions. Single folks are stuck living on base, or MIGHT get single rate housing allowance, which is much lower and doesn't typically match prices in the local real estate markets.

Technical versus managerial, enlisted vs officer is a very old argument. In military bands the musicians are considered technicians and so can never be an officer even if they have a master's from Juilliard. Unless they apply for OTS (OCS in the Army) and graduate. Then they are officers and band officers typically give up their horns.

We may be over estimating the role of uniformed Space Force members.

They may not be designing satellite killers any more than a pilot in the Air Force is designing new jets.

The cutting edge R&D is probably happening with white collar employees of the CIA and NSA, etc.

The tools R&D devises... rockets, software or otherwise... will be what the Space Force gets trained to deploy and use "in the field".

That's how I see it.

It's interesting. It seems space force has zero jobs involved with launching or preparing rockets....

There is an enlisted job for actually operating satellites in orbit ..... But that seems absolutely bonkers. I'd be really curious to see what that job actually entailed.

I've read the Space Force has 500 members.

Since they are a "department" of the Airforce I'll guess that actual rocket launches... the ones that can't be contracted to a commercial provider like SpaceX or ULA... are done by the Air Force at Vandenberg?

I'm imagining Space Force guys sitting in "Mission Control" type rooms watching over what's happening and ready to react with whatever they have to shoot back with. And probably testing out such technologies.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:31 am ...operating satellites in orbit ....

Every day at NASA someone uploads a list of to-dos for the rovers on Mars to execute and then they pick through the results that come back. I presume operating a military satellite has some resemblance to that, maybe with more real-time-options.

Seemed like a good idea at the time but absolutely no thought went into it.
Other than it was a great way to expand the military industrial complex.

The origins and appropriateness of a Space Force vary depending on who is explaining it.


The right-wing think tank Cato Institute casts this current incarnation of our space defense assets as a PR stunt...

Space Force: Ahead of Its Time, or Dreadfully Premature?

Although the Space Force has some roots in theories of bureaucratic behavior, as well as considerable support from some actors within the defense community, it seems to have caught [President Trump's] attention through his belief in its public appeal...

This leaves analysts in an unusual situation, insofar as we have relatively little information with which to generate good expectations about whether the Space Force will perform its mission effectively, how it will get along with other services, or how it will affect the international environment...

The Air Force, for better or worse, had answers to all these questions at its birth. As it now exists, the Space Force appears to a be a kludge designed to protect the political aspirations of the president while not encroaching too much on the institutional prerogatives of the Air Force.

The right-wing think tank Heritage Foundations complains that it is inadequate to the task...

U.S. Space Force

Overall U.S. Space Force Score: Weak

This is an unweighted average of the USSF’s capacity score of “weak,” capability score of “weak,” and readiness score of “marginal.”

Both of those are long reads, but the Heritage Foundation paper has interesting details about the various satellites systems and what they do, like this...

I'm not sure how you stay Geo-synchronous and yet do rendezvous at the same time.

Per the article the Space Force has a budget of less than $18 billion. That is a bit more than one day's worth of the Federal Budget. It does include R&D, although they aren't necessarily paying military members for the R&D work. Article omits any explanation of how much the Space Force Song cost.

With no disrespect to our Military (I'm a Nam veteran), it is a mistake to assume that the military alone will keep our country secure. We need a strong industrial complex. The importance of that strength was demonstrated in WW2, where a major factor in Germany's defeat was our ability to far outpace Hitler's ability to manufacture war materials.
A prime example of how this worked is the history of the Willow Run bomber plant. Roosevelt went to Henry Ford and told him what he needed.........lots of bombers. Ford's reply was that he could do it, but first Roosevelt had to get the massive government regulations off of his company so they could perform. Roosevelt cut Ford loose from the regulations. Within one year, Ford had built the Willow Run plant; two parallel a assembly lines, one mile long.
Concurrently, Ford assembled two hundred engineers to redesign the B-24 for mass production. Within one year, the Willow Run plant was turning out one completed airplane per HOUR.
There are many Internet documentaries of the Willow Run story.
That's how you win a war. Good soldiers need good supply lines. Until the U.S. recreates our manufacturing strength, it is both unreasonable and futile to cry about our inability to recruit new soldiers.
We need top notch computer minds for today's military, and they aren't available at soldiers' pay grades. They are readily available in our industrial complex, and we need to use that resource.

CharlieB wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:53 pm We need a strong industrial complex. The importance of that strength was demonstrated in WW2, where a major factor in Germany's defeat was our ability to far outpace Hitler's ability to manufacture war materials.
A prime example of how this worked is the history of the Willow Run bomber plant. Roosevelt went to Henry Ford and told him what he needed.........lots of bombers. Ford's reply was that he could do it, but first Roosevelt had to get the massive government regulations off of his company so they could perform.

That's certainly one way of characterizing events, the other being 'extortion'. Meanwhile, other Ford assets remained key suppliers to the Nazis - after all, business is business.

CharlieB wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:53 pm A prime example of how this worked is the history of the Willow Run bomber plant. Roosevelt went to Henry Ford and told him what he needed.........lots of bombers. Ford's reply was that he could do it, but first Roosevelt had to get the massive government regulations off of his company so they could perform.

I'd be curious to know what those massive regulations were in 1941. He wanted slaves maybe?

What actions were taken to benefit Ford Motor Co. for this project?