TromboneChat

Hello trombonists!
I've been involved in music all my life (singing, piano, violin, guitar, saxophone and a few others) and have decided to give the trombone a go. I bought a Selmer Bundy tenor, and spend some time each day just trying to keep a steady note while working up from Bb to F and back down again. The Emo Wah-Wah was included in the sale, as was a Vincent Bach 12C mouthpiece.

I look forward to hearing from you!

I will post a photo of my horn as soon as the moderator allows.

Nice! I'm a long-time trumpet and tuba player in New York, and just starting practicing the trombone (a King 607 w/ a Bach 6 1/2 AL) as well. Willkommen!

Welcome! I admire people who play multiple instruments, as I have enough trouble with just trombone!

bymiller wrote: ↑Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:50 pm Nice! I'm a long-time trumpet and tuba player in New York, and just starting practicing the trombone (a King 607 w/ a Bach 6 1/2 AL) as well. Willkommen!

Welcome to you, too! At least you have experience of other brass instruments. Let me know if you get a Sousaphone - I've always loved them.

Kingfan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:22 pm Welcome! I admire people who play multiple instruments, as I have enough trouble with just trombone!

Thank you.

Here's my Selmer Bundy, designed by Vincent Bach:

If anyone can tell me more about the instrument, I would like to hear both the good and the bad.

Welcome aboard James.
I don't know anything about the Bundy, apart from it's a student level medium bore tenor trombone, which I'm sure you knew.
Stephen (UK)

Welcome. I'm new here too. How long have you played violin? I just started last year and it's challenging. Trombone and horn were so much easier.

StephenK wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:30 am Welcome aboard James.
I don't know anything about the Bundy, apart from it's a student level medium bore tenor trombone, which I'm sure you knew.
Stephen (UK)

Well, as a beginner on this instrument, I probably don't need the "best"... yet.
I saw a post somewhere saying the Bundy is better than some of the brand new cheap instruments you can get.
Also, there's a connection with Buescher, which was a great saxophone-maker.

hornado wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:50 am Welcome. I'm new here too. How long have you played violin? I just started last year and it's challenging. Trombone and horn were so much easier.

Sorry, my post was a bit vague - some of these I don't play anymore. Violin was my principal instrument for many years, then in my 30's I started to suffer arthritis, so changed to saxophone. If I was starting as a string player now, or if I decide to take it up again, I would rather play viola. It's not as demanding as an instrument, and you're always in demand for playing in string quartets! Yehudi Menuhin played viola in his spare time to stretch his fingers.

The Bundy is probably at the bottom of the heap with regard to American student instruments (at least in my opinion). I much prefer the Conn Director (there are a slew of them) or the King 606. Of the student horns, the absolute best is the Yamaha 354.

Still, the Bundy is better than a lot of those odd Chinese or Indian instruments that sell for cheap.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:10 am Still, the Bundy is better than a lot of those odd Chinese or Indian instruments that sell for cheap.

Aha! It must have been one of your posts I read about the poor quality of some instruments!
Thanks for the tip. I know Conn, King and Yamaha from playing saxophone. How do B&S compare?

I'm an absolute beginner on this instrument, and at this stage have no idea how far I want to take it. If I stick with it, then I will want to move up to a FAR better instrument. The Bundy is really just a "taster".

Nils Landgren is a regular visitor here, but I think the limited edition Yamaha might be out of my range!

B&S makes really fine instruments. I had a colleague with a Sarastro Bass that he sounded great on.

They also make student grade instruments. If you can, try before you buy.

StephenK wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:30 am Welcome aboard James.
I don't know anything about the Bundy, apart from it's a student level medium bore tenor trombone, which I'm sure you knew.
Stephen (UK)

Is it medium bore? I'm pretty sure the one I played when I first started was a small bore horn. It was a decent horn - nearly indestructible. (My little brother actually dropped it off a bridge one time.)

Here's an old post where Crazy4Tbone86 provides details that seem match my sketchy recollection.
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=106041#p106041

--Andy in OKC

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afugate wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:28 am

StephenK wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:30 am Welcome aboard James.
I don't know anything about the Bundy, apart from it's a student level medium bore tenor trombone, which I'm sure you knew.
Stephen (UK)

Is it medium bore? I'm pretty sure the one I played when I first started was a small bore horn. It was a decent horn - nearly indestructible. (My little brother actually dropped it off a bridge one time.)

Here's an old post where Crazy4Tbone86 provides details that seem match my sketchy recollection.
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=106041#p106041

--Andy in OKC

Thanks for the message and the link. Mine says "Designed by Vincent Bach". As for the bore - where should I measure it to find out? As it's a very common instrument, I hope somebody will tell me this. I've had the horn more than a week now, and can manage a one-octave Bb scale up and down. More work needed!

musicofnote wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:33 am My first "owned" instrument was a Selmer Bundy b-flat trumpet.

So I LOVE to hear from folks who are flexible in words and deeds. Welcome!

Thank you! I had a Selmer Bundy Alto sax many years ago, which was okay, but I actually played Tenor and Soprano, so I just bought a cheap Alto "in case" I wanted to play it. Funnily enough, I never found the Alto comfortable to hold.

The "Designed by Vincent Bach" is pure marketing. At the time Vincent Bach was busy developing his musical instruments Bundy was a separate company making low end (read "student") instruments. Bundy was absorbed by the Vincent Bach company and the latest implementations of the Bundys were designed by people employed by Vincent Bach company. Note that Bach split off from Selmer, which explains in part why there are no Bach reed or percussion instruments and why Selmer brass instruments are very rare in the US. Bach brass are sold in the US and Selmer brass in Europe (or at least that's the way it was when I was growing up).

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Thank you for your posts. It's interesting to read about the history of different instruments.

Could someone please tell me how to find out about the bore - and what difference this makes?

The measurement is taken at the inner diameter of the free end of the inner slide tubes. The fixed ends go into the hand grip at the cork barrel.

A machinist would use bore gages such as are made by Starrett and a Swiss micrometer. They can be full round or half round. It should produce very good accuracy to three places and pretty good up four. The full round gages are probably safer to use. Some training may be required.

Some music stores may use dent removal tools to find one that match the slide. These guys on TC use dial calipers.

A little more about bore:

There are several common bore sizes for trombones: 12.7 mm, 12.9 mm, 13.3 mm, 13.9 mm, and 14.3 mm. In inch sizes these are 0.500", 0.508", 0.525", 0.547", and 0.562". The larger the bore the more air the instrument takes. Also, larger bore instruments are harder to play high on. I can certify this having had to play lead in a big band on a bass trombone (14.3 mm bore).

I apologize if I misunderstood the question. I have played big band lead on a bass trombone when the lead player elected not to show up. In the bad old days a lot of big band lead got played on ~0.485 or or 0.500 inch and below. Now they seem to play lead on up to 0.525 inch horns. Mike Innes at Dawkes on YouTube is a pretty good source for application details.

Early on, Bach’s orchestral horn was the 0.525 inch 36B until Conn came out with the 0.547 inch 88H. Now 0.547 inch is common for 1st and 2nd. Zgonc has some good YouTube footage on orchestral trombones. Google “Atlanta symphony trombone.” Mike Innes has some good stuff on 88H in orchestral settings. 0.562 is usually bass trombone territory but exceptions exist.

OneTon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:41 am The measurement is taken at the inner diameter of the free end of the inner slide tubes. The fixed ends go into the hand grip at the cork barrel.

A machinist would use bore gages such as are made by Starrett and a Swiss micrometer. They can be full round or half round. It should produce very good accuracy to three places and pretty good up four. The full round gages are probably safer to use. Some training may be required.

Some music stores may use dent removal tools to find one that match the slide. These guys on TC use dial calipers.

"inner diameter of the free end of the inner slide tubes" - if that means the hole where I put the mouthpiece, it looks like 11.7 mm on my micrometer. This is a bit small for the figures you and BGuttman give.

James wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:51 pm "inner diameter of the free end of the inner slide tubes" - if that means the hole where I put the mouthpiece, it looks like 11.7 mm on my micrometer. This is a bit small for the figures you and BGuttman give.

Nope. The OTHER end of the inner slide - at the far end near the slide crook / water valve.
My guess is that it's a "small bore" - 12.7mm.

Sometimes you can't measure the bore of the slide tubes from the free end. Some have a constriction at the end. Some have soldered-on stockings that leave the diameter a little oversize. You are going to have to trust us on bore diameters. Note that most of the Bundy trombones I know of have 12.7 mm bores. Older ones can sometimes be a little smaller: 12.3 mm (0.485 inches).

Trumpets have a bore of 11.7 mm, as well as some very early models of trombone like the Conn 2H.

James wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:51 pm

OneTon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:41 am

"inner diameter of the free end of the inner slide tubes" - if that means the hole where I put the mouthpiece, it looks like 11.7 mm on my micrometer. This is a bit small for the figures you and BGuttman give.

The mouthpiece end is also the fixed end where the inner slide tube is swaged into the cork barrel fitting. There is a lead pipe and taper lock fitting there. There is nothing to measure for what you want.

The free end is where the outer slide first slips over the inner slide. I usually have pretty good results within reason. If there are soldered on stockings or something else could be going on. In that case you will have to take Bruce’s word for it.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:42 pm Sometimes you can't measure the bore of the slide tubes from the free end. Some have a constriction at the end. Some have soldered-on stockings that leave the diameter a little oversize. You are going to have to trust us on bore diameters. Note that most of the Bundy trombones I know of have 12.7 mm bores. Older ones can sometimes be a little smaller: 12.3 mm (0.485 inches).

Trumpets have a bore of 11.7 mm, as well as some very early models of trombone like the Conn 2H.

Aha! That seems to be the answer. It was just that a posts ago there was a discussion about the bore, but thanks for the information. So now, mine is probably 12.3 or 12.7. I understand that a wider bore would need more air, so is this something to look for if I decide to upgrade in the future?

OneTon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:03 pm

James wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:51 pm

"inner diameter of the free end of the inner slide tubes" - if that means the hole where I put the mouthpiece, it looks like 11.7 mm on my micrometer. This is a bit small for the figures you and BGuttman give.

The mouthpiece end is also the fixed end where the inner slide tube is swaged into the cork barrel fitting. There is a lead pipe and taper lock fitting there. There is nothing to measure for what you want.

The free end is where the outer slide first slips over the inner slide. I usually have pretty good results within reason. If there are soldered on stockings or something else could be going on. In that case you will have to take Bruce’s word for it.

Thanks for the clarification. Please understand that until two weeks ago I had never played nor examined a trombone. Without a grounding in the technical names of the different parts I was at a loss. Obviously the outer slide is going to be a wider bore than the inner slide, and I can understand that the bore of the inner slide is going to affect the amount of air required. What difference does the bore size make in the long run? Is a wider bore more for professional instruments? Does it produce a smoother or more complex tone? Or is it just a matter of personal preference?

Generally a wider bore takes more air and gives a sound richer in lower overtones while a narrow bore gives a sound richer in higher overtones. The narrower bore favors the higher notes while the larger bore favors the lower notes.

Each size has its uses:

Small bore (12.3-12.9 mm) is generally used for Jazz.
Medium bore (13.2 mm) is a good general purpose instrument. "Jack of all trades".
Large bore (13.9 mm) is generally used by Classical trombonists
Bass trombones have the 14.3 mm bore (and sometimes larger).

Note that in my avatar I'm playing lead trombone in a Big Band using a 12.3 mm bore trombone.

Thank you! So, the inner measurement of the slide tube free end ( I know what hat is now) is 13.2mm on my micrometer. Medium bore, which I think would be expected on a student instrument. One thing that never ceases to amaze me on music forums (should be forA, of course!) is the amount of help and friendly advice one can find.
I now know so much more than I did when I bought the horn (see, I've even learnt the nickname).

All the Bundy trombones I've seen were either 12.7 mm bore or 12.3 mm bore. You may be getting bad readings because the slide stockings are expanded. The stocking is the end of the slide where the inner tube has an increased diameter for a better seal. On older instruments the stocking is an extra tube soldered over the inner tube. On pro horns the inner tube is drawn to a different diameter, and on inexpensive horns the end of the inner is simply expanded to the larger diameter.