TromboneChat

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On the Axial Flow/Thayer trombones, i'm wondering if any of the bracings don't really need to be there/could be removed for a benefit, or if they work for a reason beyond holding the trombone together physically.

I don't really know what each of them are called, but i've attached photos below I would want to keep the main tuning slide brace for a counterweight, but i'd be curious what would happen if any of the following are removed:
• Brace below the F attachment tuning slide
• Smaller brace(s) connecting Bb to the F section
• Brace on the Bb section below main tuning slide, above valve.

Thanks
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I would be careful about removing too many braces. If the parts get bent or stressed at all, it can cause a thayer valve to work poorly.

You can work out what they do.

Tuning slide tubes need to be fixed and parallel, and anything attached to the valve casing can't be allowed to flex.

Are there arrangements other than that pictured which achieve those objectives? Sure - for example, look at the options Edwards offers.

Assuming good assembly in all cases (which isn't a safe assumption), less bracing isn't inherently better. Not every necessity is a necessary evil.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:44 pm I would be careful about removing too many braces. If the parts get bent or stressed at all, it can cause a thayer valve to work poorly.

Exactly Brad!!

But, IMHO, the diamond braces between the bell flare & the valve tubing can be removed which allows the bell to resonate a bit more freely!
I usually move the rear brace onto the large bell ferrule.

There should also be a small brace on the goose neck ferrule to support the lower tube of the valve section!!
Way too flexible and easily damaged without!

And lastly, there should be a brace between the large bend near the valve and the front main brace opposite the lever bridge!

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:44 pm I would be careful about removing too many braces. If the parts get bent or stressed at all, it can cause a thayer valve to work poorly.

Thanks Brad, also the lead pipe you made for me is the best i've ever used.

Bonearzt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:49 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:44 pm I would be careful about removing too many braces. If the parts get bent or stressed at all, it can cause a thayer valve to work poorly.

Exactly Brad!!

But, IMHO, the diamond braces between the bell flare & the valve tubing can be removed which allows the bell to resonate a bit more freely!
I usually move the rear brace onto the large bell ferrule.

There should also be a small brace on the goose neck ferrule to support the lower tube of the valve section!!
Way too flexible and easily damaged without!

And lastly, there should be a brace between the large bend near the valve and the front main brace opposite the lever bridge!

Remove the Diamond braces on the nickel sleeve and the brass?, or just the brass bell flare?

I think Edwards sells an edge bracing kit for thayers: https://www.edwards-instruments.com/tro ... e-bracing/. At least I think it's for Thayers.

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:57 pm I think Edwards sells an edge bracing kit for thayers: https://www.edwards-instruments.com/tro ... e-bracing/. At least I think it's for Thayers.

It's for the Thayer valve instruments. The Rotary instruments already have that style of bracing.

Now, does Edwards still make a T-350 with edge bracing? Their website only shows the standard bracing at present, which has the valve wrap attached to the bell at the ferrule.

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:14 pm

Bonearzt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:49 pm

Exactly Brad!!

But, IMHO, the diamond braces between the bell flare & the valve tubing can be removed which allows the bell to resonate a bit more freely!
I usually move the rear brace onto the large bell ferrule.

There should also be a small brace on the goose neck ferrule to support the lower tube of the valve section!!
Way too flexible and easily damaged without!

And lastly, there should be a brace between the large bend near the valve and the front main brace opposite the lever bridge!

Remove the Diamond braces on the nickel sleeve and the brass?, or just the brass bell flare?

Move the rear one from the tuning slide tube to the ferrule and remove the forward brace.

On both my tenor and bass I did not like those types of diamond flanged braces. Had a tech in ‘97 invent an edge style brace located at the main cross brace.

I do agree, after leaving one off for years, there probably needs to be one on the gooseneck side. This can be a fixed brace on a tenor, depending on where you put the main cross brace disconnect.

So to sum, for the F wrap, I like three braces to support the wrap, one on the upper to the main brace, one from the lower to the main brace, and one near the return loop by the lever saddle.

Cheers,
Andy

When I was learning instrument repair and modification, one of my teachers/mentors summed up this topic with a simple statement (although he intended it for all brass instruments, it applies most to trumpets and trombones)….

“Bracing on bell stems adds stability (both acoustical and structural) and projection. It can reduce the quickness of response and flexibility of an instrument. If the bracing goes too far, the instrument will be dull and require too much energy to play.

Removing bracing from the bell stem (edge bracing on trombone) makes for a faster responding instrument with more flexibility and player feedback. However, it can reduce the projection and stability (again, acoustical and structural). If you go too far, there is the potential for the sound to break up, particularly on the loud end.”

When he made this statement, he emphasized that there will ALWAYS BE NUMEROUS EXCEPTIONS to these ideas. He also encouraged us to think of every instrument as being someplace on a continuum and the continuum can shift based on construction. The “continuum” idea is what has really stuck with me and guides me with modifications.

For example, if a trombonist brings me a Bach 42BO (two diamond flanges connecting the F tubing to the bell stem) and likes the sound but is aiming for a slightly faster response, we might remove one of those flanges and put a cross brace between the two parallel sides of the F tubing or connect one side of the F tubing to the main brace up by the main tuning slide. In theory, the removal of the flange should free up the bell to respond easier and the added brace shifts the structural stability to a different location. Hopefully, this would shift the instrument’s position on the continuum towards having a bell and instrument that responds a little faster.

An example in the other direction….If a musician has a large-bore tenor with “edge” style bracing and complains that the sound breaks up a little on the fortissimo spectrum, one option might be to add a brace or connector from the F tubing to the bell stem (obviously, this could get complicated and require a special connector on modular horns). The additional anchoring of the bell might move the instrument’s position on the continuum towards being more stable.

Does anyone have photo(s) of what you consider the ideal bracing would be for a thayer then? Just a stock edwards or?

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:33 pm Does anyone have photo(s) of what you consider the ideal bracing would be for a thayer then? Just a stock edwards or?

I did a similar thing to a Courtois with a rotor and got a brace from Shires. It ended up really nice!

NordicTrombone wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:15 amI did a similar thing to a Courtois with a rotor and got a brace from Shires. It ended up really nice!

That's pretty much how Getzen / Edwards braces their Custom Reserve and T350-CR-E sections as well.