TromboneChat

How much does the composition of the tuning slide crook change the color of the tone?

Some. Not a ton, not nothing. Some.

The best description that I've heard is that any addition of red or gold brass on another component (slide, tuning slide, etc.) does the same thing as having a bell of that material does, but to a lesser degree. I think that's an accurate way to describe it. They add a little bit of color to the sound.

Jim Scott

OK. I'm considering asking my tech to fabricate a red brass tuning slide for an old 6H.

I'm reminded of a study in which not just a portion but entire flutes were made of every possible metal of which flutes are made, from nickel to gold to platinum, and none of the blindfolded players or listeners could distinguish among what was being played. The difference in sound of players was greater than anything that could be heard between metals.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _the_flute

If changing the entire flute didn't get much, imagine how little changing just a tuning slide on a trombone will do.

A different tuning slide... might... sound different, none-the-less... but is it the metal or that a different person with different tools formed a slide that was different from the one the factory made?

There are many variables in this stuff besides the metal.

Just really curious

If you're looking to change the color of your sound, a mouthpiece change would be cheaper and more impactful. If you're looking for a cooler-looking horn (not a bad goal, either), go for the tuning slide change.

mcphatty00 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:14 am I'm considering asking my tech to fabricate a red brass tuning slide for an old 6H.

Unless your tech has a draw bench and is willing to make a custom mandrel and bending form (and probably seamed tubing, given the difficulty of finding stock RB tube), this isn't going to happen. I mean, it can be done, but it will cost more than a 6H.

Maybe his tech is Brad Close? I have like six things in front of it but one of those copper tuning slides is definitely on my wish list…

Chuck Ward

I’d love to hear your impression of it if he can do it. I like mixing tuning slide and bell material. Gold brass tuning slide with yellow bell or yellow ts with red or gold bells. But you have to go custom/boutique to get that on smaller horns.so would be good to know of someone who offers that

I'm taking my horns to him next weekend and I'll ask him then. I'll post his answer

I can make a crook for any tuning slide, without need of a mandrel, but it has to be a seamed sheet metal crook. The taper is achieved by what shape I cut the sheet metal before brazing the seam together. Then it can be rolled out on a generic mandrel. So it isn't drawn at all, and I think that's part of the reason mine play differently than stock tuning slides. The other factors are the thickness of the metal, the type of metal, and the internal taper. I really do feel that the material makes a difference, enough so that I use seamed copper tuning slides on both my Bach 42 and my Shires bass. For me, the copper makes the sound warmer and also gives me a centered, stable "feel". I have made a lot of tuning slides for customers. I generally make a custom crook and use stock parts for the legs, unless the customer specifically requests hand made legs as well. (Those do need a mandrel, so it's not always possible for every make of trombone.)

That is really good info to know. I'm very likely going to order one as soon as I figure out which horn I want to put one of those on...

mcphatty00 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:04 am Just really curious

The effect of different metals was hotly discussed on the old TTF forum that this forum replaced.
I'll try a synopsis:
Primarily, the sound of a trombone is created by a vibrating air column inside an open tube. Any change in the shape of that tube will alter the sound. But that's not the whole story. The vibrating air column also sets up a sympathetic vibration of the brass tube. (Frequently, you can feel this in your left hand when playing). The nature of the sympathetic vibration is affected by the construction of the horn; heavy brass, thin brass, red brass,
German silver,...... Anything you do to change the horn's materials, or the mass or location of the metal will affect the sound. The final sound is a combination of the original vibrating air column in the tube, as modified by the vibrating metal. (An easy way to demonstrate this is to compare the sound and feel of a horn with a counterweight and without a counterweight.)

If you replace a factory (thin) yellow brass tuning slide with a custom made thicker brass or copper tuning slide, that increases mass, so expect some timbre change to the sound. A lot or a little? There are no formulas. In verrrrrry general terms, adding mass will tend to darken the sound.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:09 pm Some. Not a ton, not nothing. Some.

Yup

I find it telling that there are no recordings or videos purporting to demonstrate these differences in sound.

Can anyone find one? Make one?

Yamaha has a video asserting that different alloys create different timbres. No samples, however. You'd think a manufacturer would have the resources to show it's true.

If it were true.

The differences are so small that they won't be audible in a recording, you say? Differences that small are approaching zero.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:41 pm I find it telling that there are no recordings or videos purporting to demonstrate these differences in sound.

Can anyone find one? Make one?

Yamaha has a video asserting that different alloys create different timbres. No samples, however. You'd think a manufacturer would have the resources to show it's true.

If it were true.

The differences are so small that they won't be audible in a recording, you say? Differences that small are approaching zero.

Yet you play a trombone that has three different metal alloys on the 3 major sections of the instrument. You're saying there is no reason for it to be constructed that way?

All I can add to this is that anyone who thinks material doesn't affect how a horn plays has never A / B tested a King 3b and a King 3b Silversonic. A bit of an extreme example, but I really get tired of the "can't be scientifically measured" stuff. The SPL level of music / sound can be measured, but how "loud" it sounds is greatly affected by the tonal profile / content of the sound itself. It seems like a lot of these take the way humans actually perceive sound for granted.

Maybe "affecting sound" isn't the best term for material differences. "Feel" and "Response" seem to work a bit better. Also we have to remember that a lot of brass is played quite loud, which means you go out of the linear response region.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:41 pm I find it telling that there are no recordings or videos purporting to demonstrate these differences in sound.

Can anyone find one? Make one?

Yamaha has a video asserting that different alloys create different timbres. No samples, however. You'd think a manufacturer would have the resources to show it's true.

If it were true.

The differences are so small that they won't be audible in a recording, you say? Differences that small are approaching zero.

I completely disagree with the direction of these statements. I believe that every little thing on a trombone can make a difference in how it sounds and how it feels to the performer (a perspective that your post does not mention). I believe there are reasons that manufacturers do not attempt to make "demonstration videos" showing the differences in component materials:

1. The art of performing is based on the sounds that a person produces/hears from a "live performance," both performer and audience. One of the wisest things that one of my teachers (Thomas Cramer at Oberlin) preached was the following......"If you want to hear and learn about the true timbre and sound of an instrument, you must experience it during live performances. The true sound of a trombone cannot be completely perceived from a recording."

2. For a professional musician, there is no such thing as a small difference that approaches zero. Those are simply DIFFERENCES and those are important to the musician.

Manufacturers are wise enough to NOT make videos that demonstrate the difference in sound because they know recordings cannot always demonstrate the subtle differences. A video can never recreate the perception and feedback that the musician experiences while playing the instrument. More important, the majority of people do not have enough knowledge or musical sensitivity to hear those differences even in a live setting.

Sure, the recording industry has changed many things over the last century, especially accessibility to music. I don't want to diminish the importance of the industry. However, the subtleties and nuance of sound is still something that is best appreciated in person. It is in these subtleties that musicians are always aiming to find the instrument that is optimum for them. Changes in in alloys for the different components of an instrument are exactly what fine tunes those subtleties.

We run into two different interpretations of the effect of material.

To a seasoned pro who has stable performing techniques you can perceive difference in materials. Some are even so sensitive that they perceive differences with and without a counterweight, or even with or without that rubber bumper at the end of the handslide. Does the audience perceive these differences? Probably not; most are not sophisticated enough to hear them. But what makes a pro a pro is the ability to blend with other players to create a particular sound. And choice of material can make a difference here.

To us amateurs and especially to beginners, the material does not really make a difference. If you sound like a wounded moose on a Yamaha 354, you will sound like a wounded moose on a Shires MD Special. If you are a little better but not consistent, the material may not make a discernable difference. But if you like the appearance, and can afford it, the material change is good.

Things that are real should be observable and measurable.

It is telling that that is regarded as crazy talk on this forum.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:11 am ...but I really get tired of the "can't be scientifically measured" stuff.

I'm not saying these assertions about sound can't be measured. I'm saying no one has presented any measurements to back them up.

Maybe "affecting sound" isn't the best term for material differences. "Feel" and "Response" seem to work a bit better.

However, "feel and response" are not the OP's inquiry. He's asking about actual tone color, something a listener would hear.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:32 am
Yet you play a trombone that has three different metal alloys on the 3 major sections of the instrument. You're saying there is no reason for it to be constructed that way?

A plausible reason is that they have the necessary malleability v. strength v. mechanicals for the particular form and function they must be pounded into, if indeed it is necessary for them to vary.


I'll note again that the flute world believed (still believes!) all the things about metals that are being said above and yet when they did the serious test of it, noted above, the things turned out to be imaginary.

To be honest, I’m not e tiredly convinced that material changes the sound. Or if it does, how far into the audience the change would be perceived. But it is impossible to separate perception of how something feels with how it sounds because the feedback we get influences how we play. I’m not sure if it’s possible to measure that. And if it is, it would likely be different than a flute because of the sympathetic vibrations we receive with how much of the instrument physically touches us vs a flute. And it’s possible that either more material and lower frequencies are more noticeable than flutes. After all, a bell alone is more material than a flute.

And one thing that has been rigorously scientifically observed is the placebo effect. Whether or not a material actually affects the sound in a positive manner, it may well trick us into thinking that it does. Which is effectively the same as affecting the sound.

The only thing that matters is everything!

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:14 am Things that are real should be observable and measurable.

...

I'll note again that the flute world believed (still believes!) all the things about metals that are being said above and yet when they did the serious test of it, noted above, the things turned out to be imaginary.

If I was on a panel listening to flutes of different materials I'd guarantee I wouldn't notice the difference. However, get a panel of top notch flute players listening and that's a different matter.

Same thing goes for violins. I can hear the difference between a Chinese Skylark (I have one) and a Stradivarius, but I probably can't hear the difference between the Stradivarius and a high quality maker's violin (one that costs in the high 5 figures).

That escalated quickly!

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:14 am Things that are real should be observable and measurable.

It is telling that that is regarded as crazy talk on this forum.

Very little of import in music is "observable and measurable."

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:14 am
A plausible reason is that they have the necessary malleability v. strength v. mechanicals for the particular form and function they must be pounded into, if indeed it is necessary for them to vary.

I don't think that's it. The easiest and cheapest way to build an instrument would be all yellow brass. It's quite malleable, and other alloys are not easier to draw, hammer, or spin. If instrument makers were basing their decisions solely on what material is easiest to form, then they would only use that material. Yet makers have offered gold brass, red brass, nickel silver, copper, and sterling silver bells. Often the same maker will have options for several different alloys. Clearly this is based on the perceived sonic properties, not ease of manufacturing.

I'll note again that the flute world believed (still believes!) all the things about metals that are being said above and yet when they did the serious test of it, noted above, the things turned out to be imaginary.

I feel like the author made some unwarranted assumptions, though. There WERE measurable differences between the sound of the flutes, but the author claimed those differences were "not recognizable". But the criteria for what is recognizable to a person appeared to be whether they could guess the material without looking at it. The fact that you fail to correctly guess the material doesn't mean it sounded the same. A better way to do the study would be to randomly switch between trials of 2 instruments, and have the listener identify whether the sound is the same or different.

I completely agree that the effect of any design element isn't necessarily what a person thinks it is, and I'll give the example of customers saying one of my leadpipes is very "open" when it is actually the narrowest venturi I make. But that doesn't mean it's all imaginary.

I think the reason there aren't more scientific studies about this is that it would be expensive and time consuming to do so, and there's really nothing to gain.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:24 pm I think the reason there aren't more scientific studies about this is that it would be expensive and time consuming to do so, and there's really nothing to gain.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:32 am
Yet you play a trombone that has three different metal alloys on the 3 major sections of the instrument. You're saying there is no reason for it to be constructed that way?

I guess you were speaking of my TR-181 specifically?

I bought that in 1982, aware that George Roberts endorsed it and aware that it was the least expensive one I could buy that day.

I recall the ads made some statement about the "rose" brass for a "warm" sound. Inside I hoped that was true.

Was there some basis to the TR 181's coloration other than fashion and styling?

I think some player who everyone thought sounded good happened to have a rose bell and that started the mental connection and every pretended the contrary examples didn't count.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:57 am

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:14 am Things that are real should be observable and measurable.

It is telling that that is regarded as crazy talk on this forum.

Very little of import in music is "observable and measurable."

And yet it was done.

The jury listened to players, and after their admittedly subjective individual judgements for brightness, darkness, etc were tallied, it was clear that certain players were consistently perceived as brighter or darker than others.

So that is a real thing, a thing of import (in this discussion) that can be observed and measured even if there isn't a needle to watch for it.

I don’t think anybody claims that the material of the instrument will outweigh the individual characteristics of the player. (Eg a red brass bell will make all or even the majority of players play darker than all or the majority of yellow brass). Or else it would be extremely obvious when a section was playing mismatched brass alloys.