TromboneChat

Long time lurker, first time poster


Hello my fellow trombonists. Im a student at my local music school playing my trusty, used Bach Stradivarius 50b2 from the 1980s. When I started playing bass, the smallish, tight Bach valves gave me no problems. But since I started playing and practicing more seriously, I’ve noticed that the valves and the closed-wrap is giving me some problems. I love playing my horn open, but hate putting down the triggers (makes fore some fun slide acrobatics ) The sound is so tight, and the resistance is unbearable. I also am tired of having dependent valves, and I need an independent horn for my future studies. Now I have a few options:

1. Should I covert my trombone to an open-wrap with axials? I have the money to buy I pair of instrument innovations axials (and some piping), and a tech that can do the work for me. I havens tried this version of the axials, but I have an opportunity in the next few weeks.
Im most inclined to do the conversion to axials do to me liking how most of my horn play, and the rotors and the closed-wrap is my only problem with the horn as of now.

2. Should I buy a new cheaper student-level horn? This cost the same-ish as putting a new wrap on my current horn. I know I will lose almost all the horns resell value, and the horn will not be quite as good as my current horn (without using the valves), but it will have independent valves.

3. I can sell my current horn and use all the money to buy a new Shires q-series horn. I have tried the q-series, but it wasn’t a 100% my cup of tea. It also will cost quite a bit more than I currently am willing to pay, but my mind can be changed and money can be earned.

I know some of you will say that I should buy a used horn, but in my local area, that is not as easy. If a horn gets on the marked, it often will be snatched up within the week. The used horns also often cost quite a bit of money (at times as much as a new mid-level horn).

I should also say that my main instrument is bass, and I only play tenor on occasions. Therefore Im willing to spend the money to make my bass as good as I can get it.

If the instrument innovations axials aren’t as good as I hoped, would you still recommend their rotors?

Thanks for any or all help I can get from you fantastic lot. Im sorry if my English isn’t the best, due to it being my second language and dyslexia being a bitch.

Im based in Norway if it helps. And my budget is around 20 000 – 25 000 NOK (Around 2000 – 2600 USD). If some of you have a used bass you are willing to part with, and the price + shipping is within my price range (can be a little over), I would love to buy something used.

Before you go spending a lot of money, just make sure your current valves line up properly in the casings. It may just be that you need new (and adjusted) rotor stops to make the valves feel a lot more open. Sometimes opening Bach valve rotor ports can make the horn feel more open. Both of these are a lot less than the cost of the modification you propose.

I would stay away from buying a lower quality instrument just for valves. You won't be happy over the long run. A Shires Q would be good if you can figure out how to afford it.

Axial valves are funny. Some people (like me) find them too open. Before you invest in a major surgery, test one out by borrowing somebody's just to see. If the axial conversion is better, that is probably your best course of action. But sometimes just a different valve/wrap change can be an improvement. Back in the Bad Old Days it was popular to swap out the Bach valves for a set from an Olds double valve bass (where the F wrap partly extends forward of the bell brace) for the lower resistance of the Olds valve set. (Note that back then most double valves were dependent with the 2nd valve in flat E.)

Have you played on a horn with axial valves? Coming from a Bach 50B2, that difference is going to be quite stark, and you may find that you don’t care for how open the blow can feel on axials.

If you’re adamant about converting the Bach, you might check into a Hagmann conversion, especially since you’re in Europe and closer to the source. Alternatively, the Instrument Innovations rotor valves are very highly regarded, and will also be a great improvement over your current valves.

If you really do like the feel and the blow of axial valves, another option you could look for is the Getzen 3062 series of horns. They are Getzen’s custom series, consisting of the most commonly selected options from Edwards, and are also very highly regarded. You should be able to find one within your price range of cash + 50B2 sale/trade.

I was once in your exact position, having played a 50B2 for years, then converting my horn to independent axials from Instrument Innovations. The horn was fantastic, and an utter beast, but also greatly different in feel and blow, and also very heavy. I quickly passed it on to a new home, in favor of a horn with the Instrument Innovations rotors, which I found to be a perfect match to myself.

Changing a horn that drastically is always a risk. Before you do anything, try as many trombones as you can. As many different style valves etc.

But even if you know how a valve feels on a certain trombone, there's no guarantee it will feel the same on your horn.

Hagmann's are expensive, Instrument Innovations not so much and their rotors are very good.

If I had a Bach that I wanted to make play well and I had to do it somewhat blind, that’s probably the setup I’d go for. That said, if you like the way the open horn plays I might also consider switching out the rotors with other rotors. You’re doing quite a bit. Going from dependent to independent. Going from rotors to axial. Going from closed to open. Just the change to independent is a big deal. I love mine but obviously there are still a decent amount of players that prefer dependents.

If you didn’t say you liked the open horn as much as you did I might not suggest that. But then again I mig he also suggest going a diffferent direction. Hard decision to make. Have you ever played a set of thayers that you really liked? Bachs tend to play well with thayers in my experience. If you have played another one that worked great I’d probably go with thayers. If you’ve played them and they were still lacking I’d probably stick with rotors. I have a set of instrument innovations rotors on my bass and I love them.

I'm a bit biased, I have a 50 with Olsen axials (AF valves) and it is still the best bass I've ever played. It did take quite some time, and these Olsen axials NEED to be set up well by a tech that knows what they are doing- they are not simply plug and play, or you end up with instruments like a good portion of stock Bach 50AF3s.

As others have said, to keep the horn a bit more like it was, the Olsen rotors are going to be simpler and a bit cheaper. I've had two horns with them that I didn't like a lot, but one was a prototype valve and the other (a 50) had valve cores that didn't fit!

In any case, either valve will be a MASSIVE change for the better from the original setup. A good 50B2 can be fine, but any kind of modern valve will wake up that instrument more than you can imagine.

It will be cheaper to pay a tech to install rotary valves compared with axials. You might look at Olsons, as mentioned above, or Rotax or others...

That's the traditional wrap version with the Dependent F and Eb valves, right? I know several people who had the valve sets switched out entirely. You're working against the really angular traditional wrap that Bach uses, in addition to the undersized ports on the Bach rotors.

You could just swap out the rotors, but Bach Rotors are small with short knuckles, so a lot of stuff needs to be adjusted, and particularly with how the rotors are set up with the wrap looks like it'll be fun" to get them to fit without having to cut down the tubing. Though, since the rotors are a bit bigger, I guess the tubing does need a bit of length taken off.

Finding a better valve section that someone replaced for whatever reason is also a good way to go. I have a friend who was in your exact situation, with a Bach 50B2L, and he had a friend who upgraded to twin axials, and had the independent valve section from his friends horn. With how different the wraps are, it's actually more cost effective to just replace everything, rather than all the modification required to make the wrap work with axials.

As others have said, I would see if you can try out some other horns to see what kind of feel you are aiming for. Also as you are in Europe, it may be cheaper to look into rotors / valves from Switzerland and Germany.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 12:40 pm That's the traditional wrap version with the Dependent F and Eb valves, right? I know several people who had the valve sets switched out entirely. You're working against the really angular traditional wrap that Bach uses, in addition to the undersized ports on the Bach rotors.

You could just swap out the rotors, but Bach Rotors are small with short knuckles, so a lot of stuff needs to be adjusted, and particularly with how the rotors are set up with the wrap looks like it'll be fun" to get them to fit without having to cut down the tubing. Though, since the rotors are a bit bigger, I guess the tubing does need a bit of length taken off.

Finding a better valve section that someone replaced for whatever reason is also a good way to go. I have a friend who was in your exact situation, with a Bach 50B2L, and he had a friend who upgraded to twin axials, and had the independent valve section from his friends horn. With how different the wraps are, it's actually more cost effective to just replace everything, rather than all the modification required to make the wrap work with axials.

As others have said, I would see if you can try out some other horns to see what kind of feel you are aiming for. Also as you are in Europe, it may be cheaper to look into rotors / valves from Switzerland and Germany.

Jupp - Its the useless F/Eb with double thumb activation...

My plan was to change out the entire valve-wrap and the valves themselves. If the Gods of pipe-diameter are willing, then i want to use some my already existing usable parts, but the rest i will buy from the Instrument Innovations webside.

Im not sure if i should get the rotors or axials, or if i should buy the Q-series, but ether way - the closed wrap and the valves is going to be changed.

Parts from Switzerland or Germany are quite a bit more expensive than buying from the US. And the shipping isn't that much cheaper either.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 8:54 am I'm a bit biased, I have a 50 with Olsen axials (AF valves) and it is still the best bass I've ever played. It did take quite some time, and these Olsen axials NEED to be set up well by a tech that knows what they are doing- they are not simply plug and play, or you end up with instruments like a good portion of stock Bach 50AF3s.

As others have said, to keep the horn a bit more like it was, the Olsen rotors are going to be simpler and a bit cheaper. I've had two horns with them that I didn't like a lot, but one was a prototype valve and the other (a 50) had valve cores that didn't fit!

In any case, either valve will be a MASSIVE change for the better from the original setup. A good 50B2 can be fine, but any kind of modern valve will wake up that instrument more than you can imagine.

I have to be honest - a little part of the original idea came from watching your videos

I know the tech that i want to do the job, and he is probably(most likely) the best in the country. If someone can do the job right, its him.

The axials aren't that much more expensive than the rotors, and if they play better, i will buy the better valve. I have tried a few different horns with regular rotors (none with the Olsen rotor unfortunately), and they didn't feel 100% right. But my playing has improved so much since the last time, that i have to try again.

Why Im not sure about my q-series idea, is that i know my horn will be much better to play if i change the valves and the wrap to something modern. The sound of the open horn is lovely as is, and if i can get the same or an even more open sound, even trough the valves, that will just be better.

Curious what you will end up with.

I have a 50B2L which I like - maybe strange - better than my axial shires. There is a lot of core, density and warmth in the sound. I did have had work done. The triggers are split, I had the rotors bored out and had the inner slide of the f attachment shortened. The horn plays more open now. One thing I am noticing is that the horn - for me - plays best with a smaller mouthpiece (1 1/2 G), including the low range!!

Ediespagetti1000 wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 1:34 pm

I have to be honest - a little part of the original idea came from watching your videos

I know the tech that i want to do the job, and he is probably(most likely) the best in the country. If someone can do the job right, its him.

If you're down with the axial life, then I don't think you'll be disappointed. Just be aware of the weight difference and the size difference (in your neck). Otherwise I really don't think there are big downsides to the olsen axial if set up well.

Wilco wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 2:44 pm Curious what you will end up with.

I have a 50B2L which I like - maybe strange - better than my axial shires. There is a lot of core, density and warmth in the sound. I did have had work done. The triggers are split, I had the rotors bored out and had the inner slide of the f attachment shortened. The horn plays more open now. One thing I am noticing is that the horn - for me - plays best with a smaller mouthpiece (1 1/2 G), including the low range!!

Not particularly surprising to me! A good Bach can be pretty easy to play. Leadpipe choice in the shires might help but they don’t do a one piece bell so if the one piece bell works for you Bach is definitely among the best choices. (I’m actually not thinking of another maker off the top of my head that does bass bells that way. Maybe courtouis?)

The question is really whether you like axials or not. It is a good plan and a great horn to update. I have yet to really play on a set of the Olsen rotors, I think I’m going to make a valve section with them shortly to try out a few things.

Personally, I like the way axials play, but I’m a little tired of the upkeep and looking to simplify things with some rotors.

Cheers,
Andy

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 7:01 pm The question is really whether you like axials or not. It is a good plan and a great horn to update. I have yet to really play on a set of the Olsen rotors, I think I’m going to make a valve section with them shortly to try out a few things.

Personally, I like the way axials play, but I’m a little tired of the upkeep and looking to simplify things with some rotors.

Cheers,
Andy

This is one of the reasons why after my Bach 42T, I swore off axial flow valves. They need more maintenance, oiling, etc etc. I also maybe found the valve register too open? Even when I had the end play removed and the valve set up properly, which the Bach factory did NOT do, I still preferred my horns with rotors. When the aluminum core finally wears out, I'm kinda torn on whether to have an Instrument Innovations Axial installed, or whether to have it converted for a standard rotor.

The rotor would be cheaper for the valve, but the total cost would probably be higher due to needing to replace / modify all the valve tubing.

To be clear, Olsen axials have solved most of those axial maintenance problems. Oil them regularly and you're pretty much fine.

Try to play as many horns as you can to get a sense of how the valves play, before making your decision. Modern rotors will be vastly improved compared to what you have on your horn, but if you’re a Thayer guy, go for it.

FWIW, my 50b2 is currently on a bench in pieces, with Meinlschmidt rotors sitting next to it…



Andrew

Have you considered sending the horn to Matthew Walker for a M&W conversion? I have heard he does excellent work. Alternatively you could have the Bach fitted to accept an Edwards or Shires valve set. I would think these options would be more appealing if you decide later to sell the horn.

MTbassbone wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 7:56 am Have you considered sending the horn to Matthew Walker for a M&W conversion? I have heard he does excellent work. Alternatively you could have the Bach fitted to accept an Edwards or Shires valve set. I would think these options would be more appealing if you decide later to sell the horn.

But also pretty spendy!

Matt K wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 5:50 pm

Wilco wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 2:44 pm Curious what you will end up with.

I have a 50B2L which I like - maybe strange - better than my axial shires. There is a lot of core, density and warmth in the sound. I did have had work done. The triggers are split, I had the rotors bored out and had the inner slide of the f attachment shortened. The horn plays more open now. One thing I am noticing is that the horn - for me - plays best with a smaller mouthpiece (1 1/2 G), including the low range!!

Not particularly surprising to me! A good Bach can be pretty easy to play. Leadpipe choice in the shires might help but they don’t do a one piece bell so if the one piece bell works for you Bach is definitely among the best choices. (I’m actually not thinking of another maker off the top of my head that does bass bells that way. Maybe courtouis?)

Not true. Shires does do one-piece bells now. I think Harold Van Schaik in the Florida Orchestra is playing a BII 5YMT8 these days. I've tried a few of them and find I prefer the BII 7YM and 7GM.

That said, I have a Bach that I love....but the Shires setups are what I bring to nearly every gig.

You can't really replicate a Bach with Shires, but you can get a feel that's quite compatible, and you can get a depth of sound that's not exactly the same but just as attractive to my ears.

There's nothing strange about preferring good rotary valves over axials.

I don’t think there is a way to keep the wrap original and only change to, albeit larger, new valves? I guess it wouldn’t fit to the existing tubing or would it?

I think part of the magic is in the bracing.

Wilco wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 11:11 am I don’t think there is a way to keep the wrap original and only change to, albeit larger, new valves? I guess it wouldn’t fit to the existing tubing or would it?

I think part of the magic is in the bracing.

Only with small modern rotors, like Rotax, and only then in some cases.

Not true. Shires does do one-piece bells now. I think Harold Van Schaik in the Florida Orchestra is playing a BII 5YMT8 these days. I've tried a few of them and find I prefer the BII 7YM and 7GM.

That said, I have a Bach that I love....but the Shires setups are what I bring to nearly every gig.

You can't really replicate a Bach with Shires, but you can get a feel that's quite compatible, and you can get a depth of sound that's not exactly the same but just as attractive to my ears.

Wonder when they started offering those. No idea how I missed the memo!

I agree that even if you could replace the rotors exactly as-is you might not want to. It's more expensive but if I were upgrading, I'd want to make sure the wrap was built with as little tension as possible. And with the slightly different shape and size, budget accordingly. You wouldn't necessarily need to completely redo the tubing though, although you could if you really hda your heart set on open wrap vs closed wrap.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 11:28 am

Wilco wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 11:11 am I don’t think there is a way to keep the wrap original and only change to, albeit larger, new valves? I guess it wouldn’t fit to the existing tubing or would it?

I think part of the magic is in the bracing.

Only with small modern rotors, like Rotax, and only then in some cases.

Would the Caidex valve fit? Seems to smaller than their regular valve??

Wilco wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:55 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 11:28 am

Only with small modern rotors, like Rotax, and only then in some cases.

Would the Caidex valve fit? Seems to smaller than their regular valve??

It might, never seen one in real life.

1. Converting a horn to axial flow valves/Thayers can be expensive, but less than the cost of a new horn. Many people prefer Thayers over non-Thayer valves. You won’t know until you horns with Thayers. If you are wedded to the sound and feel of a Bach, then you should try a Bach 50 with Thayer valves. Perhaps you know someone who has one, or maybe a music shop. For Thayers, the Instrument Innovations (Olsen) Infinity valves will probably work best.

Many people have mentioned different valves. Olsen also makes a great rotary valve. There are many other types of valves that can be fairly easily purchased to replace your valves—Hagmanns, Meinl Schmidt, Willson Caidex, etc. It will probably be more difficult to find and try a Bach with one of these valves.

IIRC, Hagmann and Instrument Innovations sell kits to replace your existing tubing. I don’t remember any others. Whether the tubing is the same gauge as Bach tubing, I don’t know—you’d have to ask your tech.

2. If you have any desire to pursue bass trombone beyond your current level, don’t replace your horn with a student level horn. You will not be happy or satisfied with the result. And resale value will be poor, depending on condition at the time of sale.

3. I have only played two Shires Q horns, a tenor and a bass. I liked both. Shires parts are interchangeable, so you can start with a Q and then build or customize from there. Like Gabe said, you will never get a “true” Bach sound and feel, but you can come close. Whether that is “close enough” will depend on you and your colleagues.

Change the horn for dependent to independent when you have your valve wraps to open wraps (assuming you have a traditional wrap horn).

If changing the valves themselves I'd go with Olsen valves (best bang for buck) or the M. Schmidt valves (best playing traditional style I've ever played though pricey).

Or get a Bach bass bell section that's already inline.

Contacted willson, they say the caidex and rotax are about the same size as the bach valve. Maybe OP can convert his horn to caidex and report back

It’s possible: